France closing embassies and schools in 20 countries on Friday

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Andeavor, Sep 19, 2012.

  1. Andeavor macrumors 6502

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    #1
    Yet another French magazine causing an international ruckus this week:

    For the full article go to:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/19/world/europe/france-mohammed-cartoon/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

    I'm all for freedom of speech but diplomacy and courtesy are more important, especially when dealing with privacy or religious groups.
     
  2. ugahairydawgs macrumors 68020

    ugahairydawgs

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    #2
    Protesters can scream and shout all they want to. They are fine.

    But let's not sit here and pretend that the violence like what happened in Egypt, Libya, and Lebanon would in any way have been minimized had that movie not aired or a cartoon like that not run. Criminals look for a reason to commit a crime and if it wasn't that it would have been something else.

    We can't tip toe around trying to be diplomatic with terrorists.
     
  3. citizenzen, Sep 19, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2012

    citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #3
    I'll flip those around and say free speech is more important than diplomacy and courtesy.

    However, that doesn't mean I agree with the magazine printing the cartoon.

    If I were in charge [of the magazine], I would't run it.

    It seems unnecessarily antagonistic.
     
  4. barkomatic macrumors 68040

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    #4
    What would be a diplomatic solution? The government isn't releasing these cartoons. If you live in a country that has free speech, then the government can't really do much to shut it down.

    The only diplomatic solution is for the government to publicly denounce such things in the hope that will appease radicals--but it won't.
     
  5. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #5
    From the interviews with protesters that I saw, the movie did play a part in their outrage and motivation to be on the streets. To imagine that it played no part in the protest requires you to ignore their own words.
     
  6. barkomatic macrumors 68040

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    #6
    Protesting is fine, its the violence and murder that is the problem. However, let's imagine for a moment that no violence occurred. What is the solution here?

    How can a country have free speech and not offend certain religions?
     
  7. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #7
    To be sure, Islamic countries are in the wrong here.

    My only point is that at a high point of animosity and violence, I wouldn't see it as a good time to run a cartoon.

    And I'm a cartoonist.
     
  8. Fazzy macrumors 6502

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    That magazine is clearly asking for trouble. The whole premise of "we just want to excersize our free speech" is as laughable as when The Sun said the same thing about the naked prince harry photos.

    Except this time the motivation is provocation, not profit.
     
  9. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

    kavika411

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    #9
    Yep. It's true. A french magazine is rioting at the embassies. A french magazine is setting fires and being violent. I think what happened was the french magazine talked to YouTube. YouTube told the french magazine how YouTube had attached the Libyan embassy and how YouTube had killed Christopher Stevens and three others. The french magazine thought it sounded like fun, and did the same.

    I wonder what the next thing to attack an embassy will be. Perhaps a book with words, like The Satanic Verses. I'm simply thankful it's not [what's that word?] "people" that are, as you say, "causing an international ruckus." So glad we can avoid blaming rioting "people."
     
  10. ugahairydawgs macrumors 68020

    ugahairydawgs

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    #10
    I'm not saying it didn't play a part in the protest. Peaceful protests are fine.

    I'm saying that the folks that used the protest as a cover for murder would have attempted to do so with or without the protests.
     
  11. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    To print or air these provocations and then act surprised when the **** hits the fan is just staggering.

    I'm not sure whether they really are trying to uphold free speech, or just sent out to start a riot.
     
  12. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

    kavika411

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    #12
    Good point. We should not be surprised when mere words and images cause this group of people to violently riot. We should expect this group to be violent and lawless. Oh, but wait - to do so would be profiling and intolerant.

    So, now I'm confused. Should we expect this group to react violently and lawlessly and risk being insensitive and racist in our presumption, or should we be surprised when they riot and kill people and risk "staggering" you?
     
  13. barkomatic macrumors 68040

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    #13
    Agreed, nor would I want to get on someone's hit list for life. The people at the magazine do not have the best intentions here.
     
  14. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

    kavika411

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    #14
    But the violent, murdering rioters do.
     
  15. eric/ Guest

    eric/

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    #15

    I agree on your first part, but disagree with the second.

    No excuse. I think magazines and newspapers across the world should publish one standard cartoon to as a show of strength and solidarity and that we stand for free speech no matter what.
     
  16. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #16
    No one said they do, K.

    :rolleyes:
     
  17. FrankieTDouglas macrumors 65816

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    Absolutely, they should be able to run it, and are running it. To not run it because some people are too sensitive and cannot understand the capacity that others might disagree with them without resorting to violence, is no reason not to continue living one's life and expressing opinions. The riots are a form of bullying, which should never be tolerated, and only serve to validate the message of the original comments included in free speech.
     
  18. Andeavor thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #18
    My sentiments exactly.

    In response to everybody else, I know they have the right to do run the cartoon but in a time where the relationship between the Muslim world and the western world is at a delicate point, the last thing you should to as a media source is provoke the other side.

    Sure, we westerners are "mature" enough to take a joke and are willing to discuss the rights and wrongs about it but most Muslim people (the one's offended, in particular) can't take a joke, and hence when you present them with something like that short film or the cartoon mocking their very prophet, you are bound to have it come 10-fold back at you.

    My other issue - in terms of the magazine and other publishers - is that every religious and political provokation they offer has the consequence that whomever they targeted (in their "joke-y" way) will immediately go against the rest of the country, which then ends up in the wrongful death of people who may not even agree with what the magazine's have published.

    I'm not an expert in publication laws and other regulations, but I believe the media needs to start realising that they have public responsibility and should go back to information only and stop putting us in danger like that.
     
  19. likemyorbs macrumors 68000

    likemyorbs

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    #19
    "The west thinks that we're evil people who like to blow ****** up and kill innocent people? Fine then, we'll show them! We're gonna blow ****** up and kill innocent people!". :rolleyes:
     
  20. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #20
    actually this magazine is the same which actually got it's offices set on fire last time... so i think it's pretty safe that they trying to prove a point here

    considering the amount of protests,riots and violence which ensues evertime a comic about the catholic church or pope is printed ... oh wait .. that would mean daily bloodshed

    ..which leads to the only long term solution: print a daily muhammed comic in a different newspaper in a different country sooner or later they would realize how childish their protests are in such cases
    the iconoclastic law about picturing prophets etc. simply isn't valid for non muslims .. they have to realize it sooner or later

    ironically even the despictions of jesus are actually breaking thos islamic rules ... yet the protests against the practice of pictures in christian churches is non existent
     
  21. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #21
    So people should forever watch what they say/write/draw out of fear of 'upsetting' Muslims? Not the road to take, IMO. If you want things to progress you can't give into the whims of radicals.
     
  22. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

    kavika411

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    #22
    So, you arrive at the conclusion that it is the publishers who are the real problem and not this particular group of Muslims? Asinine. If a cartoon causes a - to use your phrase - 10-fold backlash, the the problem is not the publisher. The problem is the powder keg roaming around looking for a fight.

    We can do this intellectual masturbation all day long about how the relationship between Muslims and the rest of the world is fragile, or how publishers "should know better," or all other manner of nonsense, but it is childish, regressive and insincere to suggest that WORDS - yes, WORDS - or a YOUTUBE VIDEO - or a GODDAMN CARTOON is the underlying problem for VIOLENT AND DEADLY PROTESTS.

    The underlying problem is that Islam is no longer a religion. Islam is a religion, and an economic model, and a criminal justice system, and a legal framework, and a cultural way of life that does NOT want to have a relationship with other cultures, that does NOT want to integrate with others or have others integrate with it. You are Muslim or you are not. Period. That is not me being critical, racist or anything beyond plain.****ing.truth objective.

    Humor us with specifics. What form exactly will it take when "the media" begins to "realize" their "public responsibility"? Laws? A written code of conduct? A tacit agreement? A handshake.

    You are in charge of the world - what exactly do you implement towards this "realization"? Or are we using words like "realize" and "public responsibility" and "if only" to frantically take focus off the violent, murdering rioters?
     
  23. AhmedFaisal Guest

    #23
    How about all of us atheists riot and start throwing feces every time one of the god-cultists accuses us of being responsible for Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin and whatever else they can come up with. So someone painted a cartoon of the prophet. boohoo, cry me a ****ing river. Religion is not sacrosanct, we live in a secular world, if you can't take it, get the **** out.

    And btw. it's not just the Muslims having a go at free speech. The christian churches, the jews and whatever else religious nuts are out there are all having a go when they feel their gentle feelings getting hurt.
     
  24. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #24
    The Christians and Jews tend to boycott and maybe take/threaten legal action. Rioting and murder are generally avoided.
     
  25. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #25
    Forever? No.

    During a highpoint of tension and unrest? Maybe.

    You should be able to weigh the value of what is being said vs. the possible consequences.

    IMO, a cartoon depicting Mohammed, naked and crouching, doesn't measure up.
     

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