"Free" to be paid what you're worth

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by SoAnyway, Jan 30, 2014.

  1. SoAnyway macrumors 6502

    May 10, 2011
    Daily Show correspondent Samantha Bee did a piece on minimum wage and interviewed Libertarian Peter Schiff on his views on paying minimum wage. Eventually he says something along the lines of "without a minimum wage, individuals will be free :)rolleyes:) to accept jobs at what ever pay they are able to get." He is then asked about what kind of person is worth $2 per hour and replies, "someone who is mentally retarded".

    Below is a link to the clip from The Daily Show. (Since it's The Daily Show, it is worth noting that they have their humorous twists throughout the video but that should not overshadow the point it's trying to make.)

    Wage Against the Machine

    Peter Schiff is absolutely despicable, not just for the "mentally retarded" comment but what he thinks people are worth in general. If there is no law that sets a minimum but ideally a living wage, how then is anyone free when they are forced into a situation that pays a slave wage?
  2. Technarchy macrumors 604


    May 21, 2012
    If you have a marketable skill then someone will pay you for that skill.

    If the extent of your abilities is something any illegal can do with a few weeks training, expect to get paid poorly.
  3. SoAnyway thread starter macrumors 6502

    May 10, 2011

    A living wage isn't about marketable skills.

    Who exactly are you referring to when you say "illegal"?
  4. Renzatic Suspended


    Aug 3, 2011
    Gramps, what the hell am I paying you for?
    No one should have to work two or more jobs to earn the absolute bottom of what's considered a minimum living wage.

    Back in the 50's, when everything was apparently sunshines and rainbows and unicorn farts, one guy could work a factory job and support his housewife and three toe headed kids with a comfortable life. Now? In these grand days of welfare benefits and freeloaders, both parents working two normal every day jobs can only barely get by.

    It's a very simple fact that we're all working far harder than we ever have and getting paid far less for our efforts.
  5. Technarchy macrumors 604


    May 21, 2012
    Anyone, and I do mean anyone who is staying in this country illegally.

    And there is no such thing as a "living wage". It's a myth. You pay everyone in the USA $50,000 tomorrow and it causes inflation, job cuts, and massive spikes to the consumer price index. You would kill jobs meaning less people would be employed. Business will be driven overseas, and automation will abound.

    You think you're smarter than the business world. You aren't. They are going to make their money, one way or another.

    There is no minimum wage in Switzerland, which has the highest average monthly wage in Europe at $7,765.5. If your social programs, education, healthcare, and infrastructure are sound, a minimum wage is meaningless and unnecessary and in doesn't devalue your workforce and currency.
  6. skottichan macrumors 6502a


    Oct 23, 2007
    Columbus, OH
    Just to point out about Switzerland, they have 3 referendums in various points of legislation. One will cap CEO pay to a 12:1 ratio based on the lowest paid employee, a ban on golden parachutes, and a 2500 franc/mo guaranteed salary to all Swiss citizens.
  7. Dmunjal macrumors 65816

    Jun 20, 2010
    You don't think that this has anything to do with the cost of living vs. the wages people earn? Maybe wages are fine and the "rent is too damn high"?
  8. pdjudd macrumors 601

    Jun 19, 2007
    Plymouth, MN
    That only really works if there is few people competing for your skills - when you have lots of people competing for the same jobs, the amount business are willing to pay goes down. That goes double when business become picky because they have lots of choices and people are desperate for jobs.

    It also doesn’t work when employees have low negotiating power versus companies. If you can be replaced easily, it’s hard to make more money. Your skills have to be fairly unique to get lots of money. That’s why we have a minimum - to keep business in some level of check to make sure they can’t exploit workers who are desperate to work.

    The ultimate problem is that there aren’t a ton of jobs that have skills that are really that unique compared to the large workforce out there. There are way too many employees out there in the various markets that it becomes extremely difficult to market yourself out there. That and companies have a lot of power compared to the individual. They will tend to go with the cheapest option unless they have a very specific need. Most do not have that and it takes a very long time to get that way.

    But the job market doesn’t tend to promote big salaries - unless you are an owner or an executive really. Otherwise employers set a low bar as they can to get as large of pool as cheaply as possible. A whole swath of employers don’t even need high skill - there are way too many of those type of jobs compared to higher skilled jobs that make money. Trouble with that is that it is also really tough to get there and many might not be able to.
  9. carjakester macrumors 68020


    Oct 21, 2013
    if some of the people i worked with were paid their worth they would have to pay to work...
  10. sviato macrumors 68020


    Oct 27, 2010
    HR 9038 A
    Capping CEO salary won't do much.

    I listened to a podcast with Peter Schiff recently and do agree with a lot of his posts. Everyone's looking at this from a social perspective, he's saying that the work people do for a minimum wage isn't really worth that wage. How much is unskilled labor really worth?
  11. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816


    Feb 11, 2010
    The Daily Show is often a little crude for my sense of humor. And, as usual, this one was slightly crude -- but, hilarious in a bitter sort of way. Watch it.

    So, it is OK that an unskilled American can get underbid by any illegal? From any country? So, you are OK with the US becoming a third-world country? I'm wondering if you know any below-average high school kids. Because, you are telling them they better get used to poverty. Thanks!

    Well, maybe not me, but, anybody in the bottom 47% or 53% or whatever. Absolutely.

    I understand exactly what you are saying, and, you are flat out wrong. First of all, the "living wage" is well-defined. Secondly, the U.S. minimum wage was roughly at that level some times during the postwar period. How is that possible? Very simple-- wages were compressed, top to bottom. The rich didn't make enough money to buy five Mercedes and a 20,000 square foot McMansion. Well, actually, some of them did make that much, but, the tax laws would kill them if they spent that much on toys.

    Now you are saying people should just give in to extortion?

    So, how easy is it for unskilled illegals to work in Switzerland, just out of curiosity?
  12. SoAnyway thread starter macrumors 6502

    May 10, 2011

    Do you have any data that backs any of this up?

    You want to talk about myths, the real myth is the kind of "freedom" that Peter Schiff and others in the Libertarian church often bring up.
  13. Huntn macrumors P6


    May 5, 2008
    The Misty Mountains
    What are you proposing? Do away with minimum wage, but then raise taxes to pay for social programs, education, and infrastructure, and then give everyone a raise... sounds good. ;) The key word is "sound", without a sound tax base as they have in Switzerland, none of the things you mentioned is doable. How convenient. :)
  14. citizenzen macrumors 65816

    Mar 22, 2010
    The Libertarian train is leaving the station.

    It's a one way ticket, straight to the bottom.

    Express line.

    No stops along the way.
  15. Technarchy macrumors 604


    May 21, 2012

    People most affected by the concept of a "livable wage" would get a far better standard of living bump from free healthcare, nutrition and education subsidies and access to a mass transit system than any bumps to a minimum wage.

    And by not artificially inflating the base standard of income it won't destroy the consumer price index, and inflate the currency so things like rent and clothes don't double in cost.

    As for taxes, raise em 20-50% on the top 20% of individual earners, but cut the corporate tax rate to promote job growth and encourage more companies to set up operations in the USA.
  16. SoAnyway thread starter macrumors 6502

    May 10, 2011

    You still did not provide any data to back up your claims.

    I do however, agree with you about raising the top tax rates on the highest of earners. However, the corporate tax rates need to be increased, not cut.


    All aboard the Freedom Express!

    *Disclaimer. When the Freedom Express derails, you had the freedom not to board it to begin with.
  17. citizenzen macrumors 65816

    Mar 22, 2010
    Sorry to be a broken record here, but which candidate that you vote for supports programs like those you listed?

    Political dissonance, anyone?
  18. Technarchy macrumors 604


    May 21, 2012
    Just to make it clear, who I support politically is none of your business, so stop asking. If I don't volunteer it, which happens from time to time, you're wasting your time.

    And the line of reasoning your attempting to explore is idiotic, and ripe for suckering low information voters that fall for the populist platitudes and end up with Barack Obama. It's a lot more complicated than flipping all the "D" or "R" switches. Not sure you can relate.
  19. Eraserhead macrumors G4


    Nov 3, 2005
    Almost certainly that is the problem (along with healthcare being too expensive).
  20. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502


    May 30, 2011
    Don't know if there is a general min. wage, but one thing I know for sure if your a foreigner trying to work there your boss has to sign papers regarding a min. wage (far far above the 7-10$ people are talking about in the US). And rest assured they actually do inforce those laws.
  21. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816


    Feb 11, 2010
    Sure, by giving poor people direct access to free food, housing, and transportation, no minimum wage necessary. And, some conservatives have suggested this, along with even a negative income tax. The only problem with this is that it doesn't necessarily teach a lot of people how to get started with work: how to show up, and keep showing up, how to get along with co-workers, how to feel pride in getting a job done, even if the job is sweeping the floor.

    As always, I am going to argue from history. Compressing the wage structure works. It worked in the postwar period, and, it can work again.

    I agree for two reasons: first, corporations are not people, and the law needs to treat corporate taxes in a distinctive way from personal taxes; second, corporations have gotten so good at using international trade to avoid taxes that globally, we might just as well give up on corporate taxes just to level the playing field.
  22. vrDrew macrumors 65816

    Jan 31, 2010
    Midlife, Midwest
    There is considerable market failure at the lower end of the wage spectrum. These market failures are frequently exploited by managers at the expense of highly productive lower-wage workers.

    Example: I think we've all known, or seen, near-minimum wage workers who were highly productive and/or effective. The supermarket cashier who was two or three times faster than the lowest. The fast-food checkout person who, likewise, rang up several times as many customers as other workers.

    Did these employees get paid two or three times as much? Obviously not. Why?

    Part of the answer is information asymmetry. Highly productive workers may not be able to communicate their skills adequately to employers willing to pay higher wages. And higher wage paying employers may not be able to adequately assess the skills of such potential employees.
  23. citizenzen macrumors 65816

    Mar 22, 2010
    This is a political forum, so it is my business.

    I will not stop asking when I see a contradiction between your political hopes and wishes versus the politicians and party that you are most likely voting for.

    Again, it would be like me saying, "I really value small government, an end to the minimum wage, and privatization of Social Security."

    If you knew I typically voted Democrat, you'd be wondering how I reconcile that difference in philosophy and the people I put into office as well.
  24. Huntn, Jan 31, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2014

    Huntn macrumors P6


    May 5, 2008
    The Misty Mountains
    I agree that taxes must go up. I'm not so sure about cutting corporate taxes unless the loopholes are removed that allow companies to stash profits over seas. The largest profit generators are just the entities that should be paying on the high end of what is considered fair share.
    Doesn't Switzerland have any of those minimum wage type jobs? How do they keep there people put of poverty? My guess is that among other things they have a higher tax rate and possibly a sounder method of determining what a job is worth. In the U.S. Were CEOs make 1000 times more than their average worker, values are seriously out of kilter.
  25. Gutwrench Contributor


    Jan 2, 2011
    I don't agree, it's none of your business or anyone else's. You can ask and he can decline to answer and that pretty much puts an end to it and your business, as I see it.

    This is rubbish and I agree with Tech:
    When it comes to voting it often comes down to trade offs and compromises on candidates based on issues. I know of republicans and democrats who have voted for the opposite political candidate because of issues that were important to them. So again, as far as I'm concerned your inquiry is meaningless.

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