Freedom and Chaos: Why first amendment doesn't give Nazi free pass

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by LovingTeddy, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. LovingTeddy macrumors 65816

    LovingTeddy

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    #1
    What happened over the weekend is shocking and disgusting. As a non white person I feel insulted by these person and I simply don't understand the ideology of these hateful idea. I am born whatever I am, I don't have a choice to being a white and all I want is living peacefully, is that somehow wrong? Is it wrong for me to live in a white country and being nonwhite?

    What shocked me the most is not the presentation of hate, what shocked me is the fact these hate group is using freedom of speech as a cover for their hateful ideology.

    I always believe and will always believe right and freedom we are enjoying are not something we are born with. Right and freedom is something we fight to get. Whether the French revolution or American Revolution, it is something people fought to get. There are millions of people living in a country that is not free and democratic.

    Living in a free society with all these right and freedom being granted by law, does not mean we get free pass for everything we do. Freedom of speech does not give someone pass to spreading hateful ideology. People in US are taking first amendment in to a sane level. Every sensible person or government should know the danger of hateful ideologies. Everybody should condemning these neonazi. When almost every country outlaw and criminalize hate speech, it really worth to have a deep look at the danger of hate speeches. Hate speeches and ideologies do nothing good to society but only create divide and tensions between races.

    Again, no one can choose which race they are born with. We are all human beings that living at planet Earth. Why can't we live peacefully with each other and why should we hate each other.
     
  2. yaxomoxay macrumors 68020

    yaxomoxay

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    #2
    Are you saying that they should be arrested?
     
  3. LovingTeddy thread starter macrumors 65816

    LovingTeddy

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    #3
    Yes. These who display hate and posing Nazi Sault need to be arrested. Ask any country has sensible hate crime.
     
  4. yaxomoxay macrumors 68020

    yaxomoxay

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    #4
    Well, First Amendment is there for a reason and it's going to stay. The reason is to protect citizens from people like you.
     
  5. LovingTeddy thread starter macrumors 65816

    LovingTeddy

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    #5
    So... You mean countries that outlaw hate speech are disrespect to freedom of speech?

    Free speech doesn't mean you can see whatever you want. There is a limit and it is limited
     
  6. yaxomoxay macrumors 68020

    yaxomoxay

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    #6
    I don't care about other countries. You are talking about the first amendment, which is part of the US Constitution. What happens in Canada is totally irrelevant.
    Also, as for the limit. Who sets the limit? You? I don't recognize your authority in the matter of thoughts.
    The idea that a government can limit an idea, as disgusting as it might be, is repugnant.
     
  7. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #7
    Let the nazi idiots have their rallies as long as we can post their names and addresses and where they work.
     
  8. 0007776 Suspended

    0007776

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    #8
    The first amendment protects them from being arrested for their speech. It doesn't protect them from counter protestors telling them that they are idiots.
     
  9. DrewDaHilp1 macrumors 6502a

    DrewDaHilp1

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    #9
    The government doesn't give anything. Rights are God given or Natural Rights. Be it KKK, Westboro Baptist Church or BLM they all and we all have the Right of Freedom of speech. Even the ACLU agrees.
     
  10. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #10
    Unlike the WBC this group of Nazi thugs really want the country to bow to them. I really think they are dangerous and probably belong in prison.
     
  11. yaxomoxay macrumors 68020

    yaxomoxay

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    #11
    They are dangerous but so is a government that limits free speech as intended by the First Amendment.
     
  12. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #12
    Agreed, but at what point does free hate speech turn into a crime.
     
  13. yaxomoxay macrumors 68020

    yaxomoxay

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    #13
    When the liberty and property of other citizens is infringed.
     
  14. zin macrumors 6502

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    #14
    100% yes.
     
  15. 0007776 Suspended

    0007776

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    #15
    When you start to put that speech into action. And by that I would define putting it into action as making preparations to do it or direct threats. For example, if you say "I should drive a car through those protestors" as you are getting in your car then I think the police have a right to stop you even if you haven't done it yet. On the other hand if you say "someone should drive a car through those protestors" that is a sick thing to say, but not anything that should get the police to arrest you.
     
  16. FrankieTDouglas macrumors 65816

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    #16
    So, you're saying that identity politics is ********? I agree.
     
  17. AustinIllini macrumors G3

    AustinIllini

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    #17
    This.
     
  18. fitshaced macrumors 68000

    fitshaced

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    #18
    I think the media has done a good job at exposing the white supremacists recently and social media has put them back in their box. It's also exposed the president as the racist we suspected he was. So, freedom of speech does need to be protected.
     
  19. AustinIllini macrumors G3

    AustinIllini

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    #19
    Right, there's really no reason to arrest these guys. They're on camera.
     
  20. LovingTeddy thread starter macrumors 65816

    LovingTeddy

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    #20
    Any sensible person should have a conclusion regarding to right and wrong. Being protected from first amendment doesn't mean you can go provoking hate.

    Any sensible person should.knlw that creating or tolerant these kind of speech will do society nothing good but harm.

    When there is no limit on freedom, only thing left is chaos.
    --- Post Merged, Aug 15, 2017 ---
    When these people go on street and chanting anti Jews and racist slogans, they are infringing other citizens Liberty. Being treated people equally and respectfully is everyone's liberty, yet these Neo-Nazi want all nonwhite out. This to me infringing other people's property and liberty
     
  21. fitshaced macrumors 68000

    fitshaced

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    #21
    Hate speech is not good but we can't lock up everyone that directs hate towards someone else verbally. We can try and educate people though. Or we can show them that they are truely a minority by exposing their ignorance to the world. No need for anything harder unless there is direct harm caused towards someone else.
     
  22. linuxcooldude macrumors 68020

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    #22
    But who gets to decide what is hate speech? Any time a law is too broad or cannot be properly defined, can and eventually will be exploited. It can also backfire and be used against the very people who implemented it.
     
  23. bopajuice Suspended

    bopajuice

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    #23
    I think you are being rude to this person. Ya, the person lives in another country and does not understand why hate is tolerated here. All around the world hate speech is condemned. Some countries will limit acts of hate, but in the USA we do not. Does not mean because it is protected by a constitution it should be accepted. Hate should be condemned, and weeded out.

    To be rude to someone for having an opinion that is different from yours is a great example of our ignorance.

    Embrace the first amendment but don't expect people to understand hate. Especially a person who is not white and feels the effect of hateful actions more than most, protected or not.
     
  24. localoid macrumors 68020

    localoid

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    #24
    Actually, some (harmful) forms of hate speech are illegal -- threats, harassment, and incitement to violence, for example. These types of hate speech are not constitutionally protected, free speech.
     
  25. A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

    A.Goldberg

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    #25
    While I completely understand where you're coming though, we have the have the laws that we have.

    There's some Supreme Court rulings too:
    • The Bedrock Principle (2016): “Speech may not be banned on the ground that it expresses ideas that offend.” (June 2016)
    • Brandonberg vs Ohio (1969): "Only speech that poses an imminent danger of unlawful action, where the speaker has the intention to incite such action and there is the likelihood that this will be the consequence of his or her speech, may be restricted and punished by that law." (Summarized text)
    I think the concern about limiting free speech among Americans is that free speech is one of our most valued constitutional rights.

    The problem with outlawing hate speech is where to draw the line. Obviously there are examples most every sane person can agree on- but there is the fear that the line will be pushed and pushed and people will eventually lose their right to free speech.

    Let's say the N-word was outlawed. Would we have to go back and censor or destroy every book, movie, song, etc that uses that word?

    Abortion is a very contentious issue these days. If someone said "abortion is immoral" could that be construed as hate speech because you're offending women who have had abortions?

    If you were to disagree with a religious ideology, could that be considered hate speech since you're offending the religion?

    If you stated "black Americans on average are less educated that white Americans" could that be construed as hate speech, even though it's an unfortunate reality? What if you simply were stating that fact but I interpreted it as being intentionally offensive.

    Then you have microaggressions, which are already controversial to start off with. If you told me "if you work hard you will succeed" I could interpret that as "you and your group are lazy and that's why your population isn't successful"

    Could denouncing white supremacists as bigots be considered hate speech? Maybe, I don't know. I suppose they could argue they are just standing up for their race, as other groups do (though obviously it's a different story). That's pretty much the excuse they use right now.

    I totally understand your sentiment though. It's worthy of conversation, but frankly I think protecting free speech is more important than protecting feelings, as we already have law for protecting people from explicit language that directly promotes violence.

    As one of the direct targets (I'm a Jew) of neonazis and white supremacists, I find their speech reprehensible. But I don't take it personally because I know they are wrong. I have faith that the vast majority of Americans support my people versus those of the hateful minority voice.
     

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