Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by LethalWolfe, Nov 8, 2005.
Maybe I missed it, but has there been a thread on the riots in France? If not, why not?
Hmm, that's suprising there was no thread on it already...
These riots are sad, I wish there were some way to work it out peacefully.
i love it! the french respond to social unrest by seeking to cure the underlying problems.
there's a lesson in there somewhere, even if i can't find exactly where it is.
Oh, oh! I know! The French are pussies who operate on appeasement policies at every turn.
We all know the way to quell urban violence is to send in armed forces with live rounds. Or introduce crack cocaine to the community so they stick to killing each other.
Well, so far the French seem fairly ineffective at handling the riots. I'm very surprised that it took so long for them to declare a curfew.
what about establishing 'riot zones'?
Or hiring KBR.
Where would we be without your sarcasm!
The French dont even know how many muslims or other ethnic minorities live in France because it is illegal to collect that information due to the secular nature of the country. In an ideal world, it would be great if it worked but lets face it, the French discriminate just as much as any other country does and ignoring the reality isnt helping anyone.
These kids need jobs that arent and wont be forthcoming in the current economic climate. Theyve mostly been shoved into the bainlieus and left to rot, I challenge you to find the positives in the immigrant populations of Western Europe, Im sure they are there theyre just hard to find.
One of the biggest threats to the pursuit of happiness in Europe, as shown only too clearly by the London bombings, is that the disaffected are turning towards the preachers of hate. The high birth rate amongst immigrants in contrast to the low birth rate amongst ethnic French doesnt help either.
The Saudis have supposedly invested over a billion USD in and around Sarajevo, the bulk of the money has gone to build 158 mosques and to provide training for the imams and to build schools for kids who mostly have no hope of a meaningful future inside BiH. Im not convinced that the Sauds are doing this strictly out of humanitarian concern.
The problem is multi faceted and has only been dealt with superficially over the last few decades and the recent violence is truly an indication of how poorly it has been addressed.
I just can't believe the riots have gone on for so long (nearly 2wks so far). I mean, a day or so of reactionary riots is one thing (like the King riots in LA), but something that lasts this long has to turn premeditated and organized at some point. Even what sparked the riots seems more like a convenient excuse and not something "riot worthy" (two kids of "North African decent" thought police were following them so they hid in a power substation and got electrocuted). I guess that just goes to show how bad things were if something like this ignited that powder keg.
Was the rioting just that massive or is France just not equipped to handle such an even?
Of course, w/the national unemployment rate at 10% (and up to 40% in "riot zones") there seem to be a lot pissed off people w/a lot of time on their hands.
Here is a link to a Time article that goes into more depth than the link in my OP. Link
I'd love to hear from any of the European posters that might have more insight into this. I'd heard about the racial problems in France, but I didn't think they were this explosive.
My guess, knowing what I know about France and Europe (I studied there briefly) is that they've set up a class system and put the immigrants at the bottom, and they keep them there through a combination of housing, education, and job discrimination. I don't know for sure, just a guess based on some attitudes I've seen there. Probably not very different than what happened here in the US in the 50s, and still goes on today to some extent.
Sounds to me like the cause of the high unemployment is not a lack of jobs to be had but rather the "convenience" of state subsidies.
Also, it must be said that the French economy is in the tank, so jobs are not plentiful.
equipment: i'm pretty sure the french police is schooled/equipped enough for anti-riot.. in fact the french anti riot police squads have a repuation of not really hesitating if you know what i mean
actually prior to the riots in the last years the frnech police lost 3000 police cars to vandalism _per year_.. that's nearly 10 a day.. during this riots it jumped up to 100
the problem in france are mostly the problem with those "immigrant only" satelite cities
I guess decades long socioeconomic problems actively ignored by the richer, whiter powers-that-be exploding into a two week long riot just isn't as fun to talk about if there's no way to blame Bush, NeoCons or America in general. I can only imagine how long this thread would be if this happened in a major US city.
Or maybe it's not as "fun" to talk about because we're not French, it's not happening where we live and our simple concepts of "liberal" and "conservative" aren't relevant to French politics.
France is a politically conservative nation with its own set of problems to sort out. Most of us have enough trouble keeping up with the day-to-day minutiae of our own nations' happenings.
Right, because the market fixes everything when you're a social Darwinist.
Leaving people with no money is a great motivator. Unless they suffer, die or resort to crime, that is. But nevermind pragmatism; let's all be idealistic capitalists.
Being an international board with a number of non-US residents (whom contribute regularly to US-centric discussions) on this forum I didn't think that adding a discussion about an event in another country would be an undue borden on our US residents. Isn't it a typical complaint about Americans that we are largely ignorant about things outside of our borders? Well, here is a chance to discuss a major event in another country. The riots in France weren't spawned by something that was unique to that country. I'd dare say that problems like that exist in every country to varying degrees. So it's not like it's something that we can't relate to or discuss.
The forum title is "Politics, Religion, Social Issues". Should we ask Arn to add "in America" on the end? I mean, heaven forbid we do anything but beat the same dead horse thread in and thread out down here. I think more international discussion would be nice. It would hopefully cut down on the monotony and, quite possibly, we could learn things about other countries at the same time.
And in an attempt to facilitate some OT discussion:
Do you think that the reforms mentioned by the French PM will actually happen or do you think they will end up being empty promises? And if the French PM was genuine, given the state of France's economy (which apparently isn't too hot), does France have the resources to actually follow through w/the reforms on a meaningful scale?
absolutely. for this topic, i just don't know much about it.
update: yesterday on TV (the german one) they showed the differences between german and french anti riot squads handling violent riots:
in france they approach the rioting mass from one side, using tear gas and nonlethal rubber bullets from the beginning, to drive them away and spread them, police men are quipped with great shields and big helmets but none to little body protective gear.. this strategy is influenced by the positive attitude towards revolutions because the leaders can get away easily
i ngermany after some heavy riots in the eighties they fundamnetally changed it: (was similiar to the french tactics) they use encircling tactics now, made up of large chains of police men equipped with heavy body armor, sticks and helmets( and only sometimes shields), instead of keeping the rioting mass on distance to savely drive them away the german police is actually closing in and goes straight for the leaders of the riots
that aside they said something about the federal structure of those squads in germany: they are able to put up an emercengy team made up of 1500 anti riot policemen _anywhere_ in the republic within a certain set of hours if riots would emerge surprisingly,
just a number i read now: last night 502 cars were set aflame (including civilian cars) through the whole country
and the worst is: today in the evening the french are going to play against the german national team in Saint Denis.. so it is expected to get bad today
I'm not saying it's not okay to talk about French politics here, I'm just saying it's not going to be easy because of the circumstances. The fact that few people are joining in the conversation doesn't mean we give a pass to the French while if it were Bush & Co. with the same problems we'd be all over it, as you seemed to imply.
It simply means we don't have a grasp on their politics because of geography and language separation. I mean, what do you think about Norway's recent elections? Do you think their electoral system, similar in effect to ours, needs overhauled?
What do you think about the illegal "English only" stop signs in Côte St-LucHampstead?
I'm sorry, I didn't realize I owed you a post on this matter.
Perhaps a little less 'Poppa knows best' attitude about why we sorry little Bush-hating-peons-who-really-aren't-as-broad-minded-as-we-like-to-think-we-are insinuation thrown in for good measure would have engendered more discussion. Starting off the thread with 'why isn't this being discussed yet' is exactly why I didn't bother posting. It seemed pretty obvious to me that you were already in chastise mode from the very beginning. This post only serves to confirm my suspicions.
Notice I don't post in all threads. And others only after some significant or interesting points have been made that I feel merit a response.
Yeah, France is having problems that I don't completely understand. Should I shoot my big fat liberal mouth off with half-baked, uninformed opinion? I'm sure you'd love me to confirm for you that I'm just a liberal half-wit, with nothing to say outside of "I hate Dubya, Neo-Cons, and America".
Would that have made you happier than just sitting out waiting to see if anyone with something to say that makes sense comes along?
Seriously, stow the 'tude man.
'We hate France and France hates us'
The more I discover about these riots, the more I think they're necessary.
Part of the problem is the excessively centralized nature of French authority: successive governments have undertaken huge and grandiose reconstruction schemes, but have attempted "national" solutions rather than responding to local conditions, which vary enormously. Similarly, the police implement "national" policies which fail to take account of local variations. The result in many areas has been a complete mismatch between needs and resources, and a growing number of unrecognized "hot-spots" waiting to erupt.