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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Awimoway, Aug 9, 2004.
The Jerusalem Post
that's what bugs me about these kind of articles...it reminds of a story about some german people spitting at Lance Armstrong...i come to work the next day and repeatedly hear from co-workers "did you hear what the germans did to lance?". It's all to easy for most to make the deduction, "German people hate Americans"...
i know that is a much simpler example than the israeli/french relationship...but the idea is the same.
This is obviously just another illustration of the fact that the French are more cultured and civilized than we brutish Americans.
i generally thought the same... politically the relationship between those 2 countries is very 'cold' at the moment
my guess is that those 3 guys where just idiots nothing more
i'll wait for more news about this thing
Same here, the Jer. Post is not exactly unbiased. I wonder if anything led up to this or if it was unprovoked.
Which you just proved with that last statement.
Jewish graves have been smashed and SWASTIKAS cut into grass on 2 occasions in my own town of Wellington just in the last few weeks.
The Government has just passed a resolution condemning anti-semitism.
In this case also, I think it is just a "couple of idiots" causing all the fuss.
The head of the NZ Jewish Council has indirectly put some of the blame on NZ getting pissed over Mossad agents getting caught trying to illegally get NZ passports.
Ah, it's a sad day indeed when a Brit would rather be sarcastic to a Yank instead of sarcastic about the French. Must be some new EU regulation.
You have to have a sense of humor about the French, after all they revere both Michael Moore and Jerry Lewis.
yes, you're right. we must choose sides.
my girlfriend is french, and she could care less about jerry lewis.
There's always one...
France has long had a strong anti-Jewish portion of its population. Lots of willing cooperation with the Nazis during WW II in turning in Jews for deportation to the Nazi camps. The last decade or so has seen a rise in anti-Semitism in France...
I did the tour through Dachau, a few years back. Quite educational. Plus, my father was in on the liberation of the work camp at Dortmunder. I met a few guys during my Army daze in 1954-1958 who'd been in on the liberation of one of the death camps. "I saw..." stories from guys who were there will surely get your attention.
I have no use for the "There warn't no Holocaust!" revisionists. I definitely subscribe to the "Never Again" motto at Dachau...
I'll tell Hymie & Abie jokes and all that, but my old red neck just lights up and glows when somebody starts bad-mouthing Jews. Around me, that ain't a safe pastime...
Do we have any more info on what happened?
Yeah, the anti-semitism thing seems to always flare up when France is under some sort of stress. Currently, problems with economics, international issues, and age-old social problems seem to be bringing these old feelings out of their hiding places. I can only hope that it doesn't worsen.
I just googled it and while there were many right wing nationalist sites discussing it, the only news source was the Jerusalem Post. An interesting point in the article in the JP was that the leader of the group did not bring it up with the Auschwitz staff nor did they report it to the Polish police. My guess is that there is more to the story and nobody wanted to touch it, but it would be interesting to hear what happened through another source. If the story is true, it is a travesty that it happened where so many people met such horrific deaths.
France isn't the only country with a strong anti-jewish sentiment in Europe but it sure has gotten a lot of press lately. I just read a biography on Joachim von Ribbentropp, Hitler's foreign minister, and it said that over 75% of the concentration camp leaders were non-ethnic Germans. The Baltic states produced some of the most vicious killers mainly due to strong pre-existing anti-Jewish sentiment.
I don't know much about French politics, but I do know that the National Front candidate Jean-Marie Le Pen polled surprisingly well in the last presidential election. The National Front is the party of anti-semitism and xenophobia in general.
Traditionally left wing mass media won't touch a story that doesn't push their own agenda so you have to go to third party sources to get the truth.
who are both products of a brutish society!
I was born in London but to french and italian immigrants. Bloodwise i'm half french half italian.
So, not many war heroes in my family (had to get in there first! .
A few days old, but...
"Jewish graves desecrated in France"
I wonder if the cemetery residents provoked it somehow...
"Despite a series of government measures, anti-Semitic violence has increased in recent years in France, coinciding with rising tensions between Israelis and Palestinians. Authorities have blamed young French Muslims for some of the violence.
A recent report by the French Interior Ministry found 510 anti-Jewish acts or threats in the first six months of the year, compared with 593 for all of 2003."
Those French Muslims must have watched "The Nutty Professor" one too many times...
Agreed, but I'll go so far as to say that bad mouthing ANY ethnic group simply because of their ethnicity gets my hackles up. For instance, calling people 'wetbacks' around me isn't a safe pastime if you know what I mean...
Scapegoating: the new national passtime. When you can't blame anyone else, may as well blame those pesky Muslims...or the French. I find it interesting that in a story detailing the desecration of Jewish graves with Nazi symbology and Adolf Hitler's name, Muslims get the blame. I guess that's the left-wing media for you.
France is hardly alone in the rise of anti-semitism. As detailed this report, by the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia, there has been a sharp rise in France, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and Britain over the last two years. Most reports I've seen point to two factors in the increasing anti-semitic problems: dissatisfaction among young Muslims over the Israeli situation and the loosening of attitudes towards Nazi activity.
There are two points I'd like to make on this subject. First, the initial response to this type of data is to say, "look at how racist those Europeans are." That is, simply put, bull****. For instance, according to the Anti-Defamation League, over 1500 anti-semitic acts were recorded last year in the US. That's nearly three times the amount seen in France. (Though, in per-capita terms the US had a 0.00055% rate of anti-semitic acts while France had a rate of around 0.00096%.) The point is, the US is about just as bad as Europe. People like to point to these statistics as some sort of cultural superiority when all of our countries have these problems.
In short: let's work to fix anti-semitism instead of working to smear our European "competitors" names.
Secondly, I think one of the problems facing the Jews over the next few decades is in their association with Israel. Israel is unique in the world in that it is seen as the "official" country of all the worlds Jews. This type of situation just isn't seen with any other religion. There is no official Muslim, Buddist or Christian state. Or at least that's how the world sees it.
The reason this situation could be a problem for Jews is that Israeli actions are often seen as the actions of the entire Jewish people. Now imagine any country in the world. Just pick one at random. Throughout that country's history, have they ever done anything that has pissed other members of the world off? Of course they have! Every country in the world has, at one time, done something that has pissed someone off. Countries act in the best interest of themselves.
Now for Jews living in Israel, this doesn't pose much of a problem. Their country is acting in their best interests. For Jews living abroad, however, it is a different story. A gut reaction many people will (incorrectly) have is that the actions of Israel are associated with the Jews just down the block. This is a very bad thing. If Israeli actions are interpreted as Jewish actions and Israel enters a war against (insert a country here), those Jews will become unwitting targets.
Now, as much as I think those people who make these associations are completely wrong, I do think that Jews have contributed to the association through unwaivering feelings of nationalism towards Israel. While many Jews living outside of Israel (especially younger jews) feel no association with Israel, many others feel Israel is their home, even if they have never been there. I think this sense of commitment to a country outside the country you are living in fosters a sense of connection to that country.
I feel this is a great liability to the Jewish people as a whole. Instead of becoming just another group of people bound by religion in the larger population, they become "citizens of Israel," so to speak. I think this seperation between them and their fellow citizens is very dangerous.
But what do you do about all of this? Its not the Jews' fault that anti-semitism still exists. And if the increase in violence is in any way related to the actions of Israel, how do you educate people that Israeli actions are not the same as Jewish actions?
With the problem of anti-Semitism, I see a lot of people pointing fingers, and few people giving constructive solutions. Let's hope that changes.
Agreed. Also, check out the article on Cultural Relativism I posted, which is highly relevant in this respect.
I'm about halfway through it right now. Good read. I'll try to finish it later, as work is getting in the way.
Good for nothin' work!
I don't believe this feeling of nationalism is very widespread among non-Israeli Jews. In fact I think you'll find that Reform Jews (the largest denomination in the US at least I believe), are deeply troubled by the current situation in Israel. And when the repressed and persecuted Jewish populations of the Soviet Union were allowed to emigrate, a great many chose the US over Israel as their new home. So while it's true that any Jew in the world is automatically considered to be a "citizen of Israel," in reality, only a relatively small number actually choose to exercise that prerogative.
first off, great post.
I think this works both ways too...sometimes its hard to criticize the actions of Israel w/o being called an anti-semite....
Examples, please. (I don't think this is entirely true.)