G5, are we ready?

Discussion in 'Hardware Rumors' started by MacManiac1224, May 17, 2002.

  1. MacManiac1224 macrumors regular

    Oct 21, 2001
    Let me see.....
    Apple has just released the Xserve with a custom made motherboard and 266mhz DDR ram. Hmm....

    Looks like new powermac are going to get a major upgrade. Also, Apple tells us itself. They are giving some pretty good promotions right now.

    The question is: What are the new Powermac's going to house inside? My question is this: if Apple is going to put a new motherboard in the Powermac, and put 266mhz DDR ram in the new powermac, then are they going to put a G4 in the new mac, or a G5? I know everybody has been debating about this, and it is basically up to Steve on this, but: if all of those options are going into the new powermac, then most likely it will sport a new enclousure, and with a new enclousure, a G5 will follow. Only sounds reasonable to me. Why would Apple be giving these big promotions on Powermac's if something so big is going to come out, that nobody in thier right mind would buy a 1ghz powermac of today?

    Think about it: it really doesn't make sense, unless they are going to put some crazy G4 in the new powermacs, which have G5 related features? Personally, this is what I think: I think Apple has the G5 ready to go out the door, but is holding back until the right time comes, and when the economy is ready to buy it in bulk. Also if they release the G5's in MWNY, they can then come out with high-end G5 servers, or a G5 Xserve, something to compete better with the Itanium, Power4, and UltraSPARC chips. Let's face it: the G4 can not stanf up to those chips, but from what I hear, the G5 can.

    What do you guys think?
  2. Mr. Anderson Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

    Nov 1, 2001
    We're not going to see the G5 this year. Any upgrades might be paving the way for the new architecture, but its just not there yet. I'd love to see it, but I'm not optimistic.
  3. theranch macrumors 6502

    Jan 3, 2002
    Atlantic City area
    whatever it is...

    What ever it is I'm sure it will be a real improvement on what is available now. I personally can't wait to see what happens in July....I'm overdue for a new machine.
  4. arn macrumors god


    Staff Member

    Apr 9, 2001
    Re: G5, are we ready?

    I think you're wrong... :) Apple has no reason to hold the G5 back...

    They know people would buy it up... they know they've got a performance perfection issue...

    Even Motorola has said that the G4's still have a lot of life in it... as well, I think the most recent MacWorld quotes one of them basically saying no G5 this year.... (I haven't seen this article myself... but other people have mentioned it)

    see http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/05/20020512152914.shtml as well...

  5. mymemory macrumors 68020


    May 9, 2001
    I think, a big part of the G5 issue depends of some numbers that we are not allow to know. I mean, if the G4 makes money for Apple, they can produce it for a little longer. The 1Ghz dual processor G4 came out, Apple know how popular it is. I think that if the market slows down then the G5 could be release. Of course there is the big technology development issue, the popularity of the G4 speed is just a factor that we have to realize as a business people, not as a consumer.

    Look, there was not too much to do with the old iMac, but you can add more processors or speed to a power mac yet.
  6. spuncan macrumors 6502

    Jul 18, 2001
    First lets assume the G5 could be shipped in july
    Now right now the G4 has a max of 1.5ghz?
    and unless they want the same situation of the consumer high-end being very close in speed and specs to the pro high-end they will have to either re-tool the g4 alot or release a new chip. because the idea of MWSF G5 release would just result in another 6 months of all computers on 1 cpu (which isn't apples style) so that leaves MWNY or a late summer early fall "special" release for the G5. Another big push is that in early october the opteron (64/32 bit AMD hybrid chip) will be released and will start in desktops then move elseware in early '03. The Itanium is already released but is only good for 64 bit and intel plans to release a 64/32 bit hybrid sometime soon. Myself the only apps. i know that could use 64 bit would be things like maya and fcp (video/graphics) and games (fps's mainly) these two always seem to drive the market forwards. So my guess MWNY or MWSF (no prediction cuz then i get too hyped) :D
  7. arn macrumors god


    Staff Member

    Apr 9, 2001
    No... right now the G4 has a max of 1ghz.

  8. gjohns01 macrumors member

    Jan 9, 2002
    how about..

    How about we assume that there is no G5. And if there was one, Moto probably can't reliably make them because their manufacturing process sucks a**. That's my opinion. I think if there was a reliable G5 somewhere it would have been in the Power Mac a long time ago.
  9. Catfish_Man macrumors 68030


    Sep 13, 2001
    Portland, OR
    Re: how about..

    Apparently you've never heard that designing chips takes time. The reason why there isn't a G5 yet is because the G5 isn't done/fully tested yet. IMO the reason why it's taking so long is this:
    the G3 was an enhanced 603 with backside cache
    the G4 was an enhanced G3 with L3 cache, Altivec, and a 604 based FPU.
    for the G5 they've run out of things to base it on. Whatever they're doing with it hasn't been done before, because they've already reused all the stuff they've done before. Also, if there isn't a G5, Apple's screwed. A G4 is not going to compete against a .09 micron Hammer.

    Also, if the G5 can match an Itanium I'll be very surprised. The Itanium is a $1000+ chip based on an entirely new architecture (IA-64), while the G5 is going to be a sub-$500 chip based on a 10 year old architecture (PPC). They're not in the same market. Same goes for Power4, they draw 125 watts and cost a fortune. The G4+ draws 24 watts and is cheap. Which one's going to be higher performing? Power4. Which one's going to be a better desktop chip? G4+.
  10. j763 macrumors 6502a

    Nov 25, 2001
    Champaign, IL, USA
    IMHO, if apple doesn't release the g5 in MWNY, it will be a great chip because it will have to slaughter all the new 64bit AMD's... So if we don't see a g5 @ mwny it could actually be a good sign -- a really powerhungry chip that hasn't been fully tested quite yet.

    That's my optimistic view :)
  11. oldMac macrumors 6502a

    Oct 25, 2001
    G5 Servers...

    Now... do you really think that Apple would have released the XServe with a G4 if the G5 was ready?

    I suspect that the G5 was "kind of ready", but that Apple and Motorola decided to extend the development in pursuit of better performance and/or clock speed.

    Earlier in the year, I was of the opinion that we'd see the G5 in late August, but now I'm more convinced that we won't see it until Macworld in January.

    Look for more dualies and a push toward 1.5Ghz in the G4.
  12. MacManiac1224 thread starter macrumors regular

    Oct 21, 2001

    You know, just by reading your responses, I am starting to think G4 with a new G5 equipped motherboard and I don't think there will be a new enclousure. Then in janurary, they movr up to the G5, most likely also concurrently releasing G5 Xserve's.

    What do you guys think?
  13. b8rtm8nn macrumors member

    Dec 13, 2001
    Who knows what their next chip will be and when, but I think that all of us agree that the G4 will be gone by Jan 03.

    They would not put a new chip in the XServe, because it is new territory. They could have chosen data-intensive device or processor-intensive device and they chose the former. It's a smart move on their part, because processor intensive devices are harder to build and harder to support, and putting an untested processor with a device you are offering a support service on is asking for trouble.

    I believe that July will show a new motherboard and architecture style with modified enclosure for the last of the G4s or the new chip with above. Anything less would really surprise me.
  14. DannyZR2 macrumors 6502

    Sep 18, 2001
    you guys are all full of crap.. you say.. "we won't see g5's" but you have nothing to base that on and you make it like the law or something. have you never been surprised by apple's new products? i know we all have.. that's why we buy/follow them.

    i definately think it could happen, but i have nothing to base this on except that they are due and that i want one..

    and the g4 is of course going to have more life in it when the g5 comes out.. the imac will have a g4 for at least another year or 2 before it goes to g5,while the powermac will have the g5 probably in july or by 01/2003....

    new architecture xserve has come out that NO ONE had a clue about.. we knew new servers were coming but that was it. i think it is hilarious that you all sit around and tell eachother that you KNOW that a g5 will or won't come out, because you think so.

    if you knew everything that was coming out.. you would be steve. and yer not--
  15. wwworry macrumors regular

    Mar 23, 2002
    Who knows? If someone did know they would be shouted down by people who don't. An equally useful question would be "Will it be sunny or cloudy in New York on July 15th?"

    It depends on your level of optimism.
  16. barkmonster macrumors 68020


    Dec 3, 2001
    Apollo is the only true G4 so far, why make a G4 a G5 ?

    The original G4 was no more than a G3 with Altivec, same cache scheme, same everything apart from the faster memory system.

    The Apollo G4, the PPC7450 and above is the REAL G4, larger pipelines, faster FSB and better cache scheme (when they bothered to actually use the full 2Mb cache that is)

    I think if Apple DID have the G5s ready right now, they could be just G4s with added technology, I can't imagine apple ever want a repeat of the clock speed reduction that happened when the G4s were released or the 18 month of 500Mhz Hell, I think they'll wait until we have genuine G5s with ALL the features the chip is supposed to have. they could bring out 1.4GHz G5s then be stuck at that speed for a year while the Opteron tramples all over everything Motorola are doing, Of course I imagine the Pentium 4 will be getting faster and start needing elaborate cooling just so they can keep up with "clockspeed is everything" image.

    Then again, we only need a PPC compatable chip with Altivec, what's to say we won't be getting some new chip we havn't even heard about from IBM for instance ?

    I'm realistically looking forward to G4s on DDR motherboard topping out at about 1.4Ghz, I also hope they don't cripple the entry level model with an olderm, non DDR motherboard, no L3 cache or both.

    I think that we need a Range that's more like this personally:

    (Current Pricing for each model)

    All models should have an audio input jack and front mounted Firewire/USB ports and the Radeon 8500 as an optional video card.

    Entry level: 1.2Ghz G4, 2Mb L3, 256Mb DDR, 60Gb 7200rpm HD, CDRW/DVD combo drive (optional superdrive)

    Mid Range: 1.4Ghz G4, 2Mb L3, 256Mb DDR, 80Gb 7200rpm HD, Superdrive

    high end : 1.4Ghz G4 x 2, 2Mb L3 per chip, 512Mb DDR, 100Gb 7200rpm HD, Superdrive

    Top of the range : 1.4Ghz G4 x 2, 2Mb L3 per chip, 1Gb DDR, 100Gb 7200rpm HD x 2, Superdrive

    That would make them even better value for money than now, it would be a significant leap in performance between high end iMac and Entry level tower and there would be a genuinely powerful model for all budgets. personally speaking I don't want to have to buy a mid range G4 stripped so I get the best performance when the entry level with a L2 cache and superdrive would do nicely!

    Of course apple don't seem to like giving people with less money a mac worth the cost, if you've got £2,000 you can buy some pretty good kit, the TiBook, the mid range G4. If you've only got about £1,400 or £1,500 to spend, you get a crippled mac with no L3 cache and up until recently only a 5400rpm HD.
  17. Interiority macrumors member

    Nov 9, 2001
    Re: G5, are we ready?

    Apple would undoubtedly offer promotions on the existing models, regardless of what is coming next. Whether the new PowerMac contains a mildly upgraded G4 or a new G5, they still have to get rid of the existing stock...

    Personally, I wouldn't bet on anything over dual 1.4GHz Apollo chips at the high end.
  18. pc_convert? macrumors regular

    Jan 18, 2002
    I don't think Apple will release the G5 until MWSF '03 for 2 reasons.

    1) The G4 has plenty of life in it, as motorola have already stated.
    Everyone is waiting for the G5 but we have just got DDRSDRAM - lets see what that does for the G4's performance before we all want the G5.

    2) AMD won't be releasing the Opteron until Q1'03, so why should Apple rush to get a 64-bit consumer chip out-the-door when there is no 64-bit x86 consumer chip? (Itanium is NOT a consumer chip before anyone mentions it)

    I think the G5 and Opteron will arrive at roughly the same time.

    Most computer buyers are not technically minded
    they equate high clock speeds with faster computers (which is partially true)

    If x86 with its higher clock speeds gets to 64-bit and Apple remains at 32-bits with lower clock speeds most people will think

    x86 = big bit number + big clock speed = great!
    G4 = smaller bit number + smaller clock speed + more expensive = bad!

    In the general public's eyes apple is already 'losing' in terms of clock speed. If they start 'losing' in terms of chip 'bitness' as well Apple could be in big trouble, this is why I believe the G5 and Opteron will arrive at about the same time.
  19. spaceghost macrumors newbie

    May 18, 2002
    Repost from: MWNY Do or Die on G5

    On digital audio and video (and G5 Thougts)

    I do both professionally and I ain't using no PC.

    The bottom line is if you say you do pro audio and you are using a PC, you do not know what you are talking about, because most if not all Pro's use a Mac, with Logic, Pro Tools, Digital Performer ON A MAC.

    I know I am a pro audio engineer.

    You also mention you use AMD, admittedly a great chip company, but what are you going to run.

    2 choices Linux, if there are any Pro Audio apps on this platform, and doubtful it will get ahead os OS X.

    or Windows XP, and you have to be joking.

    Windows for ANY content creation production whether pro video or audio, most pro's are laughing at you right now.

    This is equal to saying you are a Java or DBA or killer enterprise developer and you swear Mac OS 9 on an 333 MHz iMac is the killer platform.

    You would be a laughing stock and have no credibility, just as you do now, talking about AMD and Windoze (XP) in the same sentence with Pro Video and Audio.

    Apple summarily has this area wrapped up.

    OS X is will continue be the choice for pro audio and pro video.

    Also, where do you get your facts about AMD beating Macs in DSP, are you an engineer, probably not.

    DSP comes down to calculations, and the G4 (with Altivec) is still besting Pentium 4 and other chips.

    The X Server from what I have found out is besting DEC Alpha chips on Genetech's app Blast, arguably one of the most intensive calculating apps out there.

    Do not buy the Processor speed Only argument, that most people will have you believe.

    Now that being said, the Mac needs faster or should I say more powerful processors, but more importantly, a wider faster architecture, is more important at the outset.

    Just look at Xserve and you see a preview.

    That being said, we do need to see great things at MWNY, what I believe we will see.

    1. Defintely a new enclosure, count on this
    2. Probably a G4 7470 chip using .13 micron, which will get higher speeds, 1.4 Ghz and higher, at least dual's maybe more.
    3. Firewire 2 (800 Mb going to 3.2 Gb).
    4. ATA 100 or 133

    And can we all Cut the **** with USB 2.0, it will never get past FireWire2 and there are NO products using it, you will NEVER see a Mini DV camera with USB 2.0 instead of FireWire. If USB 2.0 make it so what, not that important.

    Firewire (2) is THE WAY Audio and Video will be handled now and in the future.

    ProTools systems with overpriced PCI cards are going the way of the Do Do bird as are Avid Sytems.

    333 (plus) MHz buses are coming, technologies like Hypertransport (or Rapid IO) are coming, they have to for things like HD video and the like.

    Also lets please stop this OS X on Intel or some CISC based X86 architecture.

    It WILL NEVER happen, just like FCP and DVD SP will NEVER, ever port to Windows (and Shake is being KILLED for Windows as we speak).

    First of all, All of Apple's Apps would have to be Cocoa first which will take years, then recompiled for a new processor.

    That being said, I don't think Apple is going to dump Power PC just because of this. All of Apple's Apps, FCP and the like will not work on the new Processor.

    I am guessing a New Power PC from IBM with major Ghz headroom that has multiple cores on one chip, making up for the lack of Altivec if they decide to not go with Altivec, etc. (has been discussed here somewhere at MacRumors).

    Bottom LIne: If you are doing Pro Audio, Video, 3D, DVD you will not be using any Pee Sea AMD Hack box running Windoze or Linux.

    it will be the next Gen Power Macs, XServe ,and OS X, on FCP DVDSP, Maya, Shake, next gener audio programs that take advantage of Core Audio (DSP) in OS X.

    Apple is poised to take over the pro and (even prosumer, consumer) Content creation market, just as much as Windoze has spread like cockroaches in the business world.

    But let's not get delusions thinking Windoze XP or other is some great Content Creation or even enterprise level or database platform, it is not, even Windoze IT people will tell you that. They'll use Linux before using XP.

    Pro Video and Audio, etc. is one area Windoze will Never control, trust me, and there will be Apple's 30 % plus market share.
  20. spaceghost macrumors newbie

    May 18, 2002
    Xserver, DDR 266, etc.


    People are asking why the 266 DDR on the XServe and only 133 MHz bus, and saying why, there's a bottleneck here, why would Apple do it.

    Also, Suggesting the Apollo G4 7455 is doing 2 clock cycles effectively doubling the processes per cycle, thus getting around the 133 Mhz bus bottleneck.

    1. Even though the (Apollo G4 7455) G4 can indeed DO 2 clock cycles, ON the XServer it is NOT, due to other architectural limitations on the XServe, so it is not a problem with the G4 not being able to do 2 or double clock cycles.

    2. Memory / data IO is still going at 266 Mhz, a la double the previous Power Mac rates.

    So for processor intensive applications yes it is the same as on a Quicksilver G4, but for data, where a mass of data is coming up and down, a la video etc, this is great.

    Also on the XServe, the 66 Mhz PCI slots in the Xserve are going to kick ass in the video world, 66 Mhz uncompressed video cards, and the 66 MHz ATTO SCSI 160 card, effectively Doubling data thruput.

    Also Dual 2 Gb fiber on the XServe and X RAID will give over 500 MB / sec

    more than enough for Dual High Definifition Video (HD) Streams

    We have arrived.
  21. cb911 macrumors 601


    Mar 12, 2002
    BrisVegas, Australia
    no, no, NO!!!

    there is definitely NOT going to be a G5 at MWNY!! Apple and Motorola have said so themselves. and the specs for the new PowerMacs have been leaked, so we know for sure (ok, about 90% sure) that the best we are getting in July will be dual 1.4GHz G4s.
  22. wrylachlan macrumors regular

    Jan 25, 2002
    I ask this every time the G5 is brought up, and no one ever gives me a satisfactory answer.

    When has a chip maker EVER released a chip with new instructions without giving developers a heads-up far, far in advance? Any 64-bit chip would have new instructions that developers would have to know about in order to optimize their code for it. When they released Altivec, we knew about it in advance. When Intel released MMX, SSE1 and 2, IA-64 when AMD released 3DNow and 3DNow Pro, and x86-64... every single time a chip maker has made additions to its instrucion set, the developers have known about it in advance.

    What advantage would apple get by releasing a 64-bit chip with no developer support? Would someone who thinks that apple will release the 64-bit G5 at MWNY (or SF for that matter) tell me what apples rationale is for not releasing the instruction set to developers Last Year???
  23. ericb88 macrumors member

    Apr 29, 2002
  24. wrylachlan macrumors regular

    Jan 25, 2002
    Re: how do we know they haven't

    Keeping things secret within apple is one thing... keeping something a secret when apple AND all their developers know about it is something very different.

    The possibility that apple has already seeded their developers with information on the G5 instruction set I find highly unlikely. Also there is no historic precedent for releasing this information secretly.
  25. widget macrumors newbie

    May 19, 2002
    United Kingdom
    And on a slightly more political basis, lets not forget how unreliable Motorola has been in the past. Remember when IBM started producing G4s for Apple in Oct 1999 - under liscense from Moto - because Motorola couldn't produce enough G4s.

    When the G5 does come along - and lets face it, it won't be MWNY (so enough of the wishful thinking! ;) ) - Apple will have to make sure that it can secure enough chips from Moto for new machines.

    If Apple announces a G5 at MWNY (which it won't!) and then ships them 6 months later, we can say bysie-bye to a decent stock price, and serious drop in hardware sales till the G5 Power Macs are released.

    So... we'll just have to wait and see.

    Play it cool


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