Gaddafi's Ministers deserting en masse?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by skunk, Mar 31, 2011.

  1. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #1
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...talks-with-10-more-gaddafi-aides-2258900.html

    Seems a very convenient way to get a change of regime. :)
     
  2. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #2
    Two words immediately spring to mind, "rats" and "ship".

    Private jet? Perchance a Black Ops vehicle.

    Yes, I know it's April 1st in England, and I really don't care. :p
     
  3. WillEH macrumors 6502a

    WillEH

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    #3
    It's a real shame, but I'm sure we will offer them a lovely house, a lovely benefits package if they come to the UK. The irony that we kicked Moussa Koussa out of Britain many years ago. I hope to god that we don't mess up and allow him back..
     
  4. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #4
    I believe that Gaddafi will be gone soon. My fear is what happens afterwards.
     
  5. CorvusCamenarum macrumors 65816

    CorvusCamenarum

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    #5
    Letting him retire quietly somewhere with some portion of his money would definitely have been a whole lot cheaper than spending $1,000,000 per bomb. Better PR as well. Why Washington (and NATO) thinks we're going to endear ourselves to the Muslim world by bombing them escapes me.

    Worst case, a Libya controlled by al-Qaeda. Best case, a Libya very sympathetic to al-Qaeda. I'm having a hard time seeing around either of those scenarios.
     
  6. Apple OC macrumors 68040

    Apple OC

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    #6
    I believe Gaddafi will slip out the back door with Billions of Dollars
     
  7. KingYaba macrumors 68040

    KingYaba

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    #7
    Let him. Let this mess end with him taking a hike to Venezuela or something.
     
  8. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #8
    You're sadly mistaken if you think Ghadaffi's removal is the end of this.
     
  9. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #9
    Neither of these is particularly likely. I believe the Libyans have more sense.
     
  10. eawmp1 macrumors 601

    eawmp1

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    #10
    I just hope that in the power vacuum that will occur post strong autocrat, Libyans with sense rise to take the reins.
     
  11. CorvusCamenarum macrumors 65816

    CorvusCamenarum

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    #11
    The Libyan rebels have so much sense that they have al-Qaeda members in their ranks. I already posted this information in the other Libya thread. So yeah, we're fighting one terrorist to give his country to other terrorists. Our leaders have failed to learn the lesson from the debacle that was arming the mudjahadeen to fight the Soviets in the 80s. Then again, I'm still trying to riddle out what the hell we're doing there in the first place.
     
  12. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #12
    Again, "the rebels" (despite what most media sources are portraying) are hardly a uniform organized group.
     
  13. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

    kavika411

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    #13
    Does that instill more or less confidence in you for the US/UN to be providing the rebels with assistance? I don't ask rhetorically. I get the impression that you and I may be of similar opinion that we should not be over there, but I may being thinking of a different poster. Regardless, I'm concerned if they are homogenous in purpose, and I am concerned if they are not.
     
  14. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #14
    We definitely shouldn't be arming them.
     
  15. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #15
    I just don't see the parallel between arming the mujahideen in Afghanistan and using airpower to keep Gaddafi from killing the rebels, except for the fact that they're both in Muslim countries.

    It's worth remembering that al-Qaeda has a significant presence in Africa because of these bush-fire civil wars, where the group's military training, money, and weapons smuggling is considered valuable. The presence of al-Qaeda is, roughly speaking, equivalent to the CIA agents who are also in the country.

    At this point, the fight is not just for Brega but also for the soul of the Libyan revolution and US disengagement will only make al-Qaeda's help more attractive.

    Remember, al-Qaeda came about as a mover of money to Afghanistan, then weapons to the future Taliban, but the Northern Alliance rejected al-Qaeda. The Egyptians too rejected al-Qaeda and kept the Muslim Brotherhood in check.

    In terms of recruiting for al-Qaeda and the group gaining a foothold, Bahrain and Yemen are much more serious problems where our disengagement will work for al-Qaeda far more than our engagement in Libya.


    I'm concerned that the Libyans are so fractured and that Gaddafi's strategy of playing the tribes against each other sounds similar to Hussein in Iraq. Even if the Libyans are finally successful at throwing Gaddafi out of power—and it's looking more and more like civil war followed by a Ceaușescu-like ending for him—creating a new government from scratch may be a nearly impossible task.
     
  16. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #16
    Re-constituting Libya's government is going to be a messy process - but then again forming a government is always a messy process, particularly after a civil war. This is not a situation that is in any way unique to Libya. We can't base our decisons to act on whether or not things will go smoothly after Gaddafi is gone, because it is certain they will not. Just how messy it will be is the real question.
     
  17. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

    kavika411

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    #17
    Replace "Libya" with "the Republic of Congo," and "Gaddafi" with "Denis Sassou Nguesso," and you have the same thing. Yet, we are remarkably underwhelmed by the Republic of Congo.

    Do 'em all, or do none.
     
  18. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #18
    I'm not sure why intervention in one necessitates intervention in all of them, can you explain?
     
  19. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

    kavika411

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    #19
    I agree: intervention in one, does not necessitate intervention in all. I shouldn't have been so narrow. I'll expand.

    I have heard no reasons for legitimate involvement in Libya that do not also apply to the Republic of Congo. But, as you rightly point out, I was a bit overly-simplified in my one-or-all comment.

    I tried to address this earlier with AP_piano295's comment in the "Obamahawk" thread - that the generally accepted criteria for intervention for Libya intervention applies to, at a minimum, the Republic of Congo - but it was met with a conflating yawn.
     
  20. Lord Blackadder, Apr 1, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2011

    Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #20
    I think it's a question of the scale of the conflict being larger, and the number of foreign interests in local resources being greater. Proximity too: Libya is literally next door to Europe. Also, Gaddafi is an old bugbear of the west, and can count a much longer list of powerful enemies than Denis Sassou Nguesso. Finally, the UN does not have the resources to intervene in every crisis.

    In a ideal world, the UN would have sufficient international support, force and credibility so that UN resolutions calling for a ceasefire alone might be enough to halt fighting and broker peaceful solutions or, at minimum, prevent genocide or other large-scale humanitarian disasters.
     
  21. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #21
    Libya is also, of course, sandwiched between Tunisia and Egypt, where popular revolutions have been relatively peaceful. The idea that the full military force of the state may legitimately be used against dissidents is not one that anyone wants to see take hold, or rather take hold again.

    Gbagbo? Congo? Isn't he in Côte d'Ivoire? :confused: ;)
     
  22. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #22
    Indeed, and this in is (in a nutshell) precisely why regional and international intervention is taking place.

    Well, that's embarrassing. Serves me right for leaving three tabs up at once, all dealing with three separate African conflicts. I least I got the continent right. :eek:
     
  23. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #23
    The UN is actually involved in the Ivory Coast at the moment. There's even a UN military force protecting Ouattara from Gbagbo. L.A. Times story
     
  24. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #24
    Yes, but UN boots are thin on the ground there. They might be able to secure Ouattara's compound but they have been unable to muster a larger peacekeeping force to protect civilians.
     
  25. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #25
    Your info is somewhat behind the curve: Ouattara's forces now have most of the country apart from the presidential compound in Abidjan.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12946018
     

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