gender is a social construct


LordVic

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This is one of your worst, most heavily biased question I've seen from you in a long time. You know what topic this is going to stir and you know the reactions you're expectig to get.

you also know darn well that lGBQT is often persecuted against even today, so someone "changing gender" to "close the pay gap" is ludicrous claim and not a normal thing that occurs, mainly because overall Trans people have even harder time finding employment than even women due to prejudices and bigotry.

And many of those bigots use the very same nonsensical argument you just asked in this thread.
 

jkcerda

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This is one of your worst, most heavily biased question I've seen from you in a long time. You know what topic this is going to stir and you know the reactions you're expectig to get.

you also know darn well that lGBQT is often persecuted against even today, so someone "changing gender" to "close the pay gap" is ludicrous claim and not a normal thing that occurs, mainly because overall Trans people have even harder time finding employment than even women due to prejudices and bigotry.

And many of those bigots use the very same nonsensical argument you just asked in this thread.
there is no pay gap. no matter your gender, everyone settled for pay they deem "acceptable"
 

LordVic

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there is no pay gap. no matter your gender, everyone settled for pay they deem "acceptable"
This is fundamentally untrue.

Not takin into account different jobs attriuting to a gap (cause it does, but that goes back to gendered roles and stereotypes again), there's evidence (numerous studies done up here in Canada at least) that not only do women often recieve offers for same work that are lower than men, but minorities as well often get the same treatment.

They found that if you removed the name from the resume, removing hints towards gender, racial or religious backgrounds, Hiring equality and pay offers were closer to those of men.

These are implicite biases that exist today. They don't make someone racist, prejudiced or sexist. Most people do not recognise that they do it, or that it occurs. For example, Toronto Symphony orchestra in te 70's was 100% men. moved to a blind hiring process and is now almost 50/50 split with pay equality.
 

jkcerda

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This is fundamentally untrue.

Not takin into account different jobs attriuting to a gap (cause it does, but that goes back to gendered roles and stereotypes again), there's evidence (numerous studies done up here in Canada at least) that not only do women often recieve offers for same work that are lower than men, but minorities as well often get the same treatment.

They found that if you removed the name from the resume, removing hints towards gender, racial or religious backgrounds, Hiring equality and pay offers were closer to those of men.

These are implicite biases that exist today. They don't make someone racist, prejudiced or sexist. Most people do not recognise that they do it, or that it occurs. For example, Toronto Symphony orchestra in te 70's was 100% men. moved to a blind hiring process and is now almost 50/50 split with pay equality.
it's 2019, you have trans people going into womens sports & dominating, why can't women move up the ladder the same way some men are moving down? corporations are greedy and want to pay the least they can, are you telling me they are paying me more simply because I wear pants and have a mustache? please.
 
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LordVic

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it's 2019, you have trans people going into womens sports & dominating, why can't women move up the ladder the same way some men are moving down? corporations are greedy and want to pay the least they can, are you telling me they are paying me more simply because I wear pants and have a mustache? please.
I actually would like to see that and let women who can compete in the top leagues be allowed.

but so far, it's still a "mens sport". and therefore, must stay "mens sports". even if there are completely competent woman who can keep up

I would LOVE the day that women start playing in the NHL and showing the men that they can compete at that level.
 
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jkcerda

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I actually would like to see that and let women who can compete in the top leagues be allowed.

but so far, it's still a "mens sport". and therefore, must stay "mens sports". even if there are completely competent woman who can keep up

I would LOVE the day that women start playing in the NHL and showing the men that they can compete at that level.
exactly why I can't understand why women simply don't start playing the same game some have to move into the "men's" sports.
 

LordVic

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exactly why I can't understand why women simply don't start playing the same game some have to move into the "men's" sports.
I don't understand the question. not sure it's formulated like you meant it to be.

Women ARE playing the same games. With the same rules. But the attention to these leagues are small as the owners are unwilling to spend money to advertise to grow the game.

(I Know i reference hockey a lot, it's the industry / life I grew up with).

For example, I LIve in Toronto area. Canada's largest population centre and considered around the world as the Hockey Capital of the world. And yet, how many people even knew about the Clarkson Cup? the Womans Hockey league? Very VERY few. I've gone to a few games and was going to buy season tickets to my local team, but due to a lack of advertising, leading to so few people knowing the league existed, they ended up just folding instead.

what would have happened however if the league got the same attention by corporate sponsors for advertising as the bigger leagues? or even near a fraction of that?

The idea that if you just build the womens leagues and people will come in droves is insanity, especially if no money, especially insignificant amounts is being put into it. The league is being run with the assumption that it's the players responsibility to grow the popularity of the womens leagues, not the owners, while mens sports dump billions of dollars to grow.

There's also a massive difference in access to amateur growth to ensure that players are developed to fill these leagues. If the owners and communities are unwilling to spend money on youth programs for girls, or amateur programs for women, than how is the sport going to grow with lesser athletes? This has been a problem for woman's hockey in particular because of ice time. up until a few years ago, despite thousands of hockey pads around the city, approximately 80% of all time slots were filled with Men's only leagues. about 10% with mixed leagues and the rest for womans leagues... almost entirely outside of prime hours. if you're a young woman and you're struggling to get to the top of the heap and you need to play in womans only leagues to do so (for example, to go up the ladder to play womans olympic hockey, you need to be in womans only leagues), you're going to be severely hampered by availability. Why just because you're a woman.

There's a massive systemic problem with sports and women getting fair treatment. It starts with gendered stereotypes when young, and keeps going all the way through life fighting uphill against mens leagues and organizations that have historically held all the cards.
 
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jkcerda

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I don't understand the question. not sure it's formulated like you meant it to be.

Women ARE playing the same games. With the same rules. But the attention to these leagues are small as the owners are unwilling to spend money to advertise to grow the game.

(I Know i reference hockey a lot, it's the industry / life I grew up with).

For example, I LIve in Toronto area. Canada's largest population centre and considered around the world as the Hockey Capital of the world. And yet, how many people even knew about the Clarkson Cup? the Womans Hockey league? Very VERY few. I've gone to a few games and was going to buy season tickets to my local team, but due to a lack of advertising, leading to so few people knowing the league existed, they ended up just folding instead.

what would have happened however if the league got the same attention by corporate sponsors for advertising as the bigger leagues? or even near a fraction of that?

The idea that if you just build the womens leagues and people will come in droves is insanity, especially if no money, especially insignificant amounts is being put into it. The league is being run with the assumption that it's the players responsibility to grow the popularity of the womens leagues, not the owners, while mens sports dump billions of dollars to grow.

There's also a massive difference in access to amateur growth to ensure that players are developed to fill these leagues. If the owners and communities are unwilling to spend money on youth programs for girls, or amateur programs for women, than how is the sport going to grow with lesser athletes? This has been a problem for woman's hockey in particular because of ice time. up until a few years ago, despite thousands of hockey pads around the city, approximately 80% of all time slots were filled with Men's only leagues. about 10% with mixed leagues and the rest for womans leagues... almost entirely outside of prime hours. if you're a young woman and you're struggling to get to the top of the heap and you need to play in womans only leagues to do so (for example, to go up the ladder to play womans olympic hockey, you need to be in womans only leagues), you're going to be severely hampered by availability. Why just because you're a woman.

There's a massive systemic problem with sports and women getting fair treatment. It starts with gendered stereotypes when young, and keeps going all the way through life fighting uphill against mens leagues and organizations that have historically held all the cards.
women should self identify as men and go play in the mens leagues. ........ that is the only way you can get "inclusion" faster .
 

LordVic

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women should self identify as men and go play in the mens leagues. ........ that is the only way you can get "inclusion" faster .
again with this nonsense deflection.

you keep wanting to bring in trans discussions... it betrays that it's something that you are uncomfortable with
 
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jkcerda

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again with this nonsense deflection.

you keep wanting to bring in trans discussions... it betrays that it's something that you are uncomfortable with
o_Oo_Oo_O
I have trans friends..............
again, 2019 where trans females go into women sport to dominate, why are women not going into mens sports to compete?
 

LordVic

macrumors 603
Sep 7, 2011
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o_Oo_Oo_O
I have trans friends..............
again, 2019 where trans females go into women sport to dominate, why are women not going into mens sports to compete?
Women showing better morality and ethics than men *shrugs*
 

Altis

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Sep 10, 2013
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Women ARE playing the same games. With the same rules. But the attention to these leagues are small as the owners are unwilling to spend money to advertise to grow the game.
They often aren't the same, though. Look at Wimbleton where women play 3 sets rather than the 5 men play, and get longer breaks.

And considering even the top female athletes/teams significantly under-perform moderate male athletes (sometimes even young boys), it's pretty easy to see why there's a lack of viewership (not least of which by female viewers).

Heck, even male athletes who transition to female and are on medications that stifle performance manage to top the female leagues and break records.

Women showing better morality and ethics than men *shrugs*
But those trans-women are women now, no? So it's trans-men (ie. men) "showing better morality and ethics".
 
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Sebct

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Dec 18, 2010
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I was quite sceptical of the pay gap before but then I read some academic articles, I can’t remember what they were, from Vox I think.

I now donate 20% of my salary to a few woman who were being hit hard by the pay gap.

Strangely, they now call me Daddy.
 

BlankStar

macrumors 6502a
Aug 13, 2004
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Belgium
I can't wrap my head around people officially changing their sex. It's a biological thing. That you like to dress up and feel more like a woman, that's all ok for me, do whatever makes you happy. But biology is a simple thing.

I feel like an old man after some weekends, can I identify as an old man and get my pension now please?

To make sure: please re-read the "that's all ok for me" part before shooting me down.
 

TheFluffyDuck

macrumors 6502
Jul 26, 2012
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You can mimic another gender, but you cant be another gender. Gender and sex are biologically intertwined and are synonymous, no matter how hard the social constructionists try and define them apart.
 

oldmacs

macrumors 601
Sep 14, 2010
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Australia
I can't wrap my head around people officially changing their sex. It's a biological thing. That you like to dress up and feel more like a woman, that's all ok for me, do whatever makes you happy. But biology is a simple thing.

I feel like an old man after some weekends, can I identify as an old man and get my pension now please?

To make sure: please re-read the "that's all ok for me" part before shooting me down.
People don't wake up one morning and change their gender for the heck of it. They change their gender because they feel like the opposite gender. Not something you or I can completely grasp.

Gender is a complex thing and so is biology. Studies show that people who identify as transexual often have a brain structure that is more similar to the sex that they identify with than the sex that they were born presenting as.

Comparing sex to age shows a misunderstanding of this area.
 
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BlankStar

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People don't wake up one morning and change their gender for the heck of it. They change their gender because they feel like the opposite gender. Not something you or I can completely grasp.

Gender is a complex thing and so is biology. Studies show that people who identify as transexual often have a brain structure that is more similar to the sex that they identify with than the sex that they were born presenting as.

Comparing sex to age shows a misunderstanding of this area.
I am aware that it's something that doesn't happen overnight, and as I'm said; I'm cool with transpeople, but nevertheless whatever you feel. That does not change the biological facts.

And on the brain studies;
So when scientists identify that my brain is working like an old man, I can ask for my pension?