Gendercide

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Mac'nCheese, Jun 23, 2011.

  1. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

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    #1
    Just saw an interview on tv about gendercide, the practice of aborting female babies in (mainly) Asian countries. The reasons vary but usually have something to do with money: Indian families can't afford dowries or males will grow up and be able to get better jobs to help their families, etc. Here in the USA, I'm used to pro-choicers saying that its the woman's choice to abort a baby for whatever her reasons: too young to properly care for a baby, not financially able to care for a child, not ready to give up their own life/dreams to settle down, medical problems with a pregnancy, etc. So.....is this ok? This gendercide doesn't seem smart, it looks like China might run out of wives for all the surviving men in about 50 years, but morally, is this the same as our (USA's) reasons for abortion or does this cross a line?

    Here's one link about it but googling gendercide brings up a ton of sites...

    http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/shows/cwn/2011/June/Critics-Accuse-UN-of-Funding-China-Gendercide/
     
  2. appleguy123 macrumors 603

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    #2
    I hEar that large parts of Asia will become so male biased that they will effectively be like the Wild West.
     
  3. Surely, Jun 23, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2011

    Surely Guest

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    #3
    It crosses the line. Choosing to have an abortion because it's not the sex you want is not a good reason.
     
  4. quagmire macrumors 603

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    #4
    The one child policy in China is most likely making this even worse.

    It definitely crosses the line.
     
  5. appleguy123 macrumors 603

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    I don't think that it crosses the line. Many families want a certain combination of children (like 1 boy, 1 girl, quit). Selective abortions allow a family to be happy with the sexes of their children without causing overpopulation.

    Would people who think this is over the line be okay with determining the gender of a child in the lab?
     
  6. yg17 macrumors G5

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    #6
    Err, if they only have males, won't they run out of females? Sounds like a pretty stupid idea to me.
     
  7. Mac'nCheese thread starter macrumors 68030

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    If you mean, mixing up the sperm and egg and somehow making sure the resulting fetus is male or female, I guess you can say two things:
    1. You might run into the same problem and the countries that practice gendercide will run into: more males then female by far in a few decades.
    BUT:
    2. You're not committing abortion by doing it this way so there is no pesky moral issue of "is it murder" to worry about.

    They are, actually. China will be in trouble, according to some, in about 50 years. Maybe that's how we can pay back all our (USA) loans. We can sell them brides in a few decades...
     
  8. appleguy123 macrumors 603

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    #8
    M&C, do you oppose abortion being legal?

    If not, why is it okay to abort children because you don't want them, but not okay to abort children when they're not the sex you like?

    Shou,d the latter actually be illegal, and how would you determine the reason for the abortion?
     
  9. Phil A. Moderator

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    #9
    If you're pro-choice and support abortion then it would be hypocritical to oppose selective abortion based on the sex of the foetus - there is no difference in aborting a pregnancy because the mother doesn't feel able to cope with a baby and aborting a pregnancy because it's not the sex you want.

    Either way, it's been determined that the foetus isn't actually a viable human at this stage (which is why it's legal), so there really isn't any difference (or shouldn't be) in people's moral stances - Pro-choice is exactly that: Supporting the absolute right of the mother to choose if she wants to carry the baby or not.

    Whether it's a sensible thing to do for the long term viability of the human race is a completely different argument...
     
  10. IntelliUser macrumors 6502

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    Making abortion more accessible and always legal will not cause a gendercide in the US or other developed countries, as long as women have the same job opportunities and get paid the same as men. It's all connected.

    Besides, even if abortion was illegal in China, India etc., they would just perform it illegally or simply abandon or kill the baby.
     
  11. (marc) macrumors 6502a

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    Good for us. That way they'll reproduce less.
     
  12. Mac'nCheese thread starter macrumors 68030

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    #12
    I'm on the fence. I certainly don't think a woman should be forced to carry a baby to term if it risks her health, if she is a young victim of rape/incest, you know, the easy ones most people agree with. I have a problem with abortion and the thinking that a woman has a right to destroy another life just because it doesn't fit into her plans. On the other hand, who is to say when life begins and when a fetus becomes a baby who has his/her own rights to live. Cop out answer? Maybe but its as honest as I can be.


    Exactly why I asked. Is it different to abort a child who will be left handed? Is there a line?

    Beats me man, I just thought it was interesting and wanted to know how others felt.
     
  13. Phil A. Moderator

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    #13
    IMO, it's a clear cut choice between two polar opposites: Either it's not a life so it's OK to abort for any reason, or it is a life and it's never OK to abort.

    That's where the division in opinion comes from: Pro-lifers believe that a foetus is a life the from the very beginning and therefore feel that abortion is murder. On the other hand, pro-choicers believe that it's not a life until much later in the pregnancy and therefore abortion isn't murder because there is no life to be taken.

    If you adopt a half and half approach you are then effectively saying that state sanctioned murder is OK in certain circumstances: Is that really what you think?

    (for the record, I'm pro-choice)
     
  14. likemyorbs, Jun 23, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2011

    likemyorbs macrumors 68000

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    #14
    On the bright side, Asian countries will have no other choice than to legalize same sex marriage in about 50 years. :D
     
  15. Mac'nCheese thread starter macrumors 68030

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    No, I think maybe you might have misunderstood or I did a bad job posting my feelings. I don't go back and forth on the is a fetus a life depending on which circumstance there is; I honestly don't know if it is and therefor I am on the fence about being pro-choice or pro-life. HOWEVER, I do think that the mother's life takes precedent over the fetus so if giving birth would kill the mother, in any case, abortion is the moral option. And state sanctioned murder could be what some people call the death sentence which I have no problem with.
     
  16. appleguy123 macrumors 603

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    +1 there is no 'line' to cross. It's the same argument as the general 'is abortion morally wrong' argument.

    If we support abortion, we have to work for equal rights. Saying that gender-based abortion should not be legal, or is wrong, is just a band-aide solution to the real problem. That in some countries it is more advantageous to have a male than a female.

    If it doesn't stop, then a male biased species is what we have to look forward to.

    (pro-choice also).
     
  17. Phil A., Jun 23, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2011

    Phil A. Moderator

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    #17
    Thanks for the clarification. Personally, I'm very much against the death sentence

    However, I do also strongly believe that an early term foetus is definitely not a life but rather a collection of cells and therefore have no issue with abortion.

    Edit:
    I've edited some of this post after reading it through and realising it didn't make much sense!
     
  18. likemyorbs macrumors 68000

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    Freedom sometimes has its consequences. For example, we have freedom of speech, but that means that sometimes we have to tolerate neo-nazis marching down our streets. With freedom of abortion, we have to accept that some people will do it for the wrong reasons, and this will never change. That is the price we have to pay for it to remain legal and safe for people who do need it. Besides the fact, it's not like banning abortion would stop people from having abortions, they would just go back to doing it like they did in the old days. Let the asians learn the consequences on their actions on their own, when they have no more girls left.
     
  19. Mac'nCheese thread starter macrumors 68030

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    #19
    Freedoms can also have limits. To use your example, you can't yell fire in a crowded movie theater or go on tv and spread lies about someone. In fact, the freedom of abortion comes with restrictions now, you can't get one in the 8th month of pregnancy. And I was never comfortable with the argument of "if you make it illegal, people will do it anyway." You can say that about a lot of things but they are still illegal. Society at least tries to curb what we deem to be immoral or dangerous behavior.
     
  20. likemyorbs macrumors 68000

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    The limit to freedom is when it hurts other people. With abortion, that question is debatable. Under current laws, an unborn fetus is not a life (depending on where you live and what trimester you are in) and therefore the abortion does not hurt anyone. Is it worth wasting tax money to prosecute women for getting abortions? I think not.
     
  21. Surely Guest

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  22. skunk macrumors G4

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    #22
    Nicely put.
     
  23. .Andy macrumors 68030

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    I strongly disagree with this. There are vast differences between an early termination on socioeconomic grounds and selection based on genetic traits. To choose a foetus on sex one has to (a) undergo amniocentesis (or choroid sampling), an invasive medical procedure which puts the mother and foetus at increased risk to sample cells, (b) in vitro fertilisation and implantation of a specific sex, or (c) have a late abortion when the sex is verifiable on ultrasound (or indeed after birth which is indefensible).

    In my mind (b) is the only one which could be argued is acceptable on ethical grounds and does not require terminating a foetus. Both (a) and (c) are far less ethical as they are medical procedures that are not indicated for the wellbeing of mother or foetus.
     
  24. skunk, Jun 23, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2011

    skunk macrumors G4

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    #24
    What is Il Padre Pio's stance on in vitro fertilisation?

    Edit: Got it

    http://www.catholicinsight.com/online/church/vatican/article_475.shtml


    Great stuff. Next question: why does this bollox not seem to apply to adoption?
     
  25. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

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    #25
    I've always wondered the same thing myself.
     

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