Germans and Russians

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by TSE, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. TSE macrumors 68030

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    #1
    I have heard from friends and people that have been to Germany for awhile that Germans and Russians still have a some intolerable hate for each other.

    Is this true? I'm not trolling, I'm honestly curious and want to hear from some first hand sources, Russians, or Germans.

    And if they do, why?
     
  2. simsaladimbamba

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    #2
    How did those people come to that conclusion?

    And while it may be true for some people (maybe some 100s out of 80 million) the general German public does not have a hate for Russians, even as 16 million people were living in the Soviet Occupation Zone for quite some time.

    There is always some group of people hating another group of people, it will hardly go away anytime soon, unless we all poke each other to death of course.
     
  3. (marc) macrumors 6502a

    (marc)

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    #3
    It's not true.
     
  4. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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  5. Shotglass macrumors 65816

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    #5
    I'm from Berlin, and through most of high school, 5-10% of the pupils were Russian. Nobody ever had a problem with them, or the other way around. Also, most of Eastern Germany enjoyed a few decades of heavy cultural influence from Russia, which I'm sure you're aware of. As far as I know, none of this has led to any negative feelings among any of the population. Of course, my knowledge is restricted to roughly my age group.
    I'd say your friends don't know what they're talking about.
     
  6. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #6
    If they did I cant imagine id have had my first taste of russian food in berlin.
     
  7. Peterkro macrumors 68020

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    #7
    Although I don't think many Russians hate Germans they nevertheless have a healthy suspicion of the German state, with good reason.
     
  8. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

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    #8
    Most of the war prejudice has passed with the generation that fought them. There are probably a few leftovers as usual but I think the general populace (politics aside) are pretty civil with most other developed nations.
     
  9. Shotglass macrumors 65816

    Shotglass

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    #9
    I've certainly found this to be true.
     
  10. renewed macrumors 68040

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    Bemalte Blumen duften nicht.
  11. Shotglass macrumors 65816

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    #11
    In my experience, tensions between Germans and Turks exist only in the lower classes. I've only met one or two people so far that were intolerant of foreigners despite being intelligent and educated.
     
  12. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #12
    It is worth pointing out that Russia currently has a very big racism problem, spearheaded by various neo-Nazi groups. The biggest targets in Russia seem to be Muslims and Jews, though pretty much every non-white ethnicity seems a potential target. It's still not terribly uncommon to see bannanas thrown at black football (soccer) players in the Russian Premier League. Nevertheless, since these groups take much of their rhetoric and imagery from Nazism, it's hard to imagine any specific prejudices against Germans.
     
  13. Cox Orange, Mar 22, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2012

    Cox Orange macrumors 68000

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    #13
    I'm interested, how come, you feel that way? They do not have to fear that police comes and punish them, when they make use of their right of free speech, neither is there a big oil/gas company that will send its thugs to make sure they go to hospital, when they make use of their right of free speech. No one forces them to vote Angela Merkel or anybody else. Why should they have a suspicion of the German state? As far as worker's rights go, they face the same problems as German workers of the lower income sector like people working in the building industry (where illegal wages are paid by the bosses and the bosses try to cheat the German state in terms of taxes). More and more "Russians" who were born here work in the army (going to Afghanistan for Germany) or in the police, by the way.
     
  14. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

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    #14
    In a word, "History".

    And, history did not begin with WWII, or, WWI. But, we are all glad that WWII seems finally to be over. It was a long war.
     
  15. Cox Orange macrumors 68000

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    #15
    Are you saying, Russians fear that Germany will attack them again??? :confused:
     
  16. Peterkro macrumors 68020

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    #16
    I suggest you bone up on your history,the first world war, the white russian counter revolutionaries and so on.I'm aware there is a fascist movement in Russia but most people have been directly effected by Nazism and know the propensity of the German state to try and influence countries surrounding them.The situation in the Balkans and Pakistan and so on is well recognised to be tied up with German expansionism.If you've suffered from one particular states murderous invasion of your country I think your quite rightly somewhat suspect of their motivations.
     
  17. Cox Orange, Mar 22, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2012

    Cox Orange macrumors 68000

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    #17
    Sorry! Thanks for that lesson. Very insightful!

    Of course I have to add something ;)
    1. I did talk about Russians living in Germany and being citizens of Germany
    2. I did not know that after that many years the wars are still present in the collective mind of the Russian society.
    3. I could not even suspect, that Russians could see (misinterpret as some might as well think) the european actions as German imperialism/expansionalism.
    (I thought the EU is making it hard for new countries to get in the EU and the Balkan states want to get in, why should they go through all the trouble, if they do not want. OK, you say, they are forced to get members of the EU. I understand, that there are people in Greece that say Germany should care for their own business and not interfere in Greek politics - again, those Greeks who think there has to be something done are not recognized by the media, because the others are louder. Other EU-member-states wished Germany would have reacted quicker in the financial crisis. The German government is very sensitive of its history, which is why they do not want to give others the feeling they patronize them. Other countries like France, the Netherlands etc. see Germany as being havery and indecisive. Germany always thinks no one likes them, although it is not true anymore and this normally results in hesitant actions.)


    PS: I do not know of anything that Germany is in with Pakistan. Can you tell me what they are doing? (Honestly, I do not mean it ironically or so, I really do not know and would like to know).
     
  18. Lord Blackadder, Mar 22, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2012

    Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

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    #18
    Modern Germany is a very different place from the German Empire of the Edwardian era and WWI, the Weimar Republic or, of course, Nazi Germany. It is also quite different in some ways from the two German states that existed in the Cold War. I can fully understand how Russians who lived through the trauma of WWII could be constitutionially suspicious of Germans, but younger generations have little reason to particularly fear or hate Germany.

    Moreover, if Russians are suspicious of the 'propensity of the German state to try and influence countries surrounding them', they ought to look in the mirror and ponder the ways in which they are strongarming their immediate neighbors - behavior that is at least as much of an exercise of naked power as anything Germany is up to at the moment.

    Finally, Germany's participation in various NATO and UN interventions is as part of a coalition, so I don't see why Russians would single them out over other powers such as the French, English or Americans.

    As a completely honest question, to what extent do you suppose the Russian state or media might be pushing these supposed anti-German sentiments?
     
  19. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #19
    No, in general, it is not true.

    Exactly.

    Some very good points made here. Russia does have a problem with racism, with ugly responses to anyone with a darker skin (and here, emigration from the Caucasus and central Asia parts of the old Russian and Soviet Imperium to Russia itself supplies an ample stream of potential perfect targets), and it has long had a serious problem with anti-Semitism, dating back at least two centuries.

    Exactly, in a word, 'history'. Or lived history, and remembered history.

    No.

    Very good post.

    OP, WW2 was not the usual war about resources, invasion, God, glory, gold or greed, but it was mainly about a clash of ideologies, or belief systems. One of these belief systems was that espoused by the then German Government, which postulated a world view based on racial theories. This perspective argued that the Aryan people - best expressed racially by Germany - were innately superior to all others and that the function of the other, inferior races was to serve - essentially as slaves - or, in the case of the most detested groups (Jews, gays, etc) be murdered outright on an industrial scale.

    The fate in mind for the population of Russia was eternal slavery, which was to be initiated as a result of the German invasion of June 1941. In their case, this was a double tragedy, as they were already ruled by a man (J. V. Stalin) with an appetite for social & political engineering with his people as guinea pigs, an experiment which also cost millions of lives.

    During WW2, it is estimated that Russia lost 20 million people, due to the war. The Soviet Government didn't dare publish the results of the State census until the late 1950s, as they were afraid of the public reaction, once people learned the true, human cost of the war.

    For what it is worth, I taught Russian and Soviet history and politics at university. I used to say to my students that if they chose to remember only one statistic concerning Russian casualties from the Second World War, let it be the following fact, whereupon I would ask them to guess the answer to this question:

    :Of all of the young men in the entire Soviet Union who were 17 years of age in 1941, what percentage survived the war? I made them guess the answer, aloud, asking them in turn to speculate, and, as the percentages went steadily down, thoughtful silence would descend on the room, followed by horror. The answer is three per cent.
     
  20. jeremy h macrumors 6502

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    #20
    Good post but surely one of the major reasons that the Third Reich launched it's invasions was completely about resources. Hitler wanted an empire, a great living space (can't remember the exact German term) for the Aryan people.

    The idea was to create a greater Germany, subjugate the West, either negotiate with or knock out the British Empire then go East and create this living space by exterminating or enslaving the inhabitants. (While in the west it was an occupation - in the east Poland, Ukraine and Russia would cease to exist and every resource there was to be used as raw materials for the benefit of the Reich (including human beings)).

    There's a great book which talks about Hitler's German economy and the war effort - I highly recommend it. It also makes you very uncomfortable about letting Speer off and companies like Volkswagen, Seimens etc etc
     
  21. Shotglass macrumors 65816

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    #21
    I do know he was specifically interested in the Kornkammer Ukraine, which he expected to feed his entire army within a short time of being conquered. Also, the oil situated in the Caucasus was critically important to his further plans because without it, his tanks would be absolutely useless. If I remember correctly, Germany was already running low on oil by the time Unternehmen Barbarossa fell on its ass.
     
  22. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

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    #22
    Lebensraum, FWIW.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum

    "Resources" was nothing more than the excuse. Don't let yourself fall for Hitler's rationalizations. Hitler's program, like that of Alexander the Great, Napoleon, and all the other Great Dictators of history, was to take advantage of the baser instincts of underemployed young men and turn a profit. Empire and Ego.
     
  23. jeremy h macrumors 6502

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    #23

    That's the term! Thanks. By the way - I'm not falling for his rationalisations. With Hitler's Germany you have to follow the money as well as the armies.
     
  24. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #24
    The alternative was a Versailles Treaty-style destruction of the German nation's economy - just the thing that helped the Nazis to power in the first place. Some people got off rather cheaply, but overall a good balance was struck between punishment and necessary, reasonable reconstruction.

    I still don't see any evidence supporting specific anti-German sentiment in modern Russia though.
     
  25. jnpy!$4g3cwk, Mar 24, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2012

    jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

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    #25
    In fairness to modern Germany, de-(etc), including de-Nazification was much more thorough there than just about anywhere, and it has a much better record on social justice than most countries.

    (The current Euro-debt situation is a different story: I think Germany wants to have its cake (a large unified-currency market for its products) and eat it too (not pay high taxes to support poor Europeans along the Mediterranean. But, that is for some other thread.)

    The discussion backed into this because of the interplay of history and modern sentiment:

    As far as I know, Germans are very low on the list of Russians' anti-(etc) sentiments today.
     

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