Get out of the city

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Sydde, Aug 10, 2012.

  1. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    #1
    In another thread, one poster made a comment, (paraphrased)
    Why would I want to own property in a ____hole like (the City)? The next chance I get I am out of that (!)-ing place.... might as well live in (a ghetto).

    This strikes me as the quintessential American attitude: if there is a bad thing, get away from it. Fail to try to work to make it better, head for the hills. If you are making the money, get away from other people and live on your private estate while the ugliness you fled just gets uglier, and you (mostly) are not forced to look at it.

    Perhaps this is an effect or affect of our system, that those who have "made it" have earned the privilege of being insulated from "it". Kind of a spiral, islands of wealth surrounded by seas of effluent, and an ethos of "do better so you can escape the mess". We seem to be inclined to work against (un-toward) each other instead of trying to work together (competition is preferable to collaboration, because the latter smells to much like communism). And this ethos helps reinforce the concept of man-as-an-island that underlies the glibertarian ideology.

    My point is a question. To what extent should this separatist ideal be opposed or fought, and where would one start?

    [/rant]
     
  2. niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Location:
    A man of the people. The right sort of people.
    #2
    It's the same in many cites (but not all). London is a great example, people flock to it to make their money, then move out again once they can afford to.

    Edinburgh is a great example of a city when the wealthy and the very poor seem to coexist with little tension. Not so in London, you can feel the stress there.

    Back on point though - I don't think running from problems is an American only attitude, it's definitely prevalent in the UK. Not sure about elsewhere.
     
  3. charlieegan3 macrumors 68020

    charlieegan3

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2012
    Location:
    U.K
    #3
    This is a big issue and a good topic, and is present in the UK too.

    While selfishness might have something to do with it, I think it is also to do with people feeling underpowered/very small in the big scheme of things.
     
  4. niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Location:
    A man of the people. The right sort of people.
    #4
    Also I think socialist ideas are making a comeback in the West which is interesting because Marx actually thought that for communism to work, you had to go full circle, ie have a capitalist society that destroyed itself so that people realised that the social model wasn't working and wanted change.

    Think banking crisis, political scandals etc. People are definitely more inclined for socialist type protections.
     
  5. ender land macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    #5
    People like blaming other people. Why try to solve a problem when you can push the responsibility on someone else?

    I guarantee every person on these forums (myself included) holds and vocalizes quite strong opinions about something being wrong, a mess, totally ****ed up, stupid, etc, yet take no proactive steps to address it.
     
  6. niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Location:
    A man of the people. The right sort of people.
    #6
    That's the powerlessness of our generation. Unions are weaker than they used to be (in our country that is), our government parties offer no real choice, and public protesting is mocked by the press as a waste of time and nuisance.

    The powerful have built an impregnable network of rules and divide the people with political marketing. They talk change, and fill their own pockets, and leave the rest of us running around bickering with each other. A renegade that tries to break the status quo is unpatriotic and should be ignored.

    What's to do.
     
  7. ender land macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    #7
    Are you trying to be ironic?
     
  8. RITZFit macrumors 65816

    RITZFit

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2007
    Location:
    In my Corner
    #8
    Out for "Numero UNO". Its much easier to overlook problems rather than deal with them...just human nature if you ask me. I think that's why we are so inspired (or surprised) by those who make an effort to find solutions. I believe it take a community mindset to change things/ make people feel more unified. Its hard as hell trying to change things when you don't see anyone else moving.
     
  9. niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Location:
    A man of the people. The right sort of people.
    #9
    Unless you have some bizarre definition of ironic, then no.
     
  10. fox10078 macrumors 6502

    fox10078

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2009
    #10
    The city has problems, but I don't want to leave.
     
  11. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Location:
    Hartford, CT
    #11
    How would that be ironic?
     
  12. Sydde thread starter macrumors 68020

    Sydde

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    #12
    niuniu is British, or at least steeped in British culture. Brits do not try to be ironic. They are or they are not, there is no "try".
     
  13. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    #13
    I can see both sides of it.

    I mean, let's say you have kids and have the option of living in City A with a bad school system or moving to City B with a good school system. Are you really going to keep your kids in the bad school system in hopes that you can stick around and effect change that will take 10 or 20 years to realize?
     
  14. Sydde thread starter macrumors 68020

    Sydde

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    #14
    My god, man, of course you can. Suburban flight is the obvious, easy answer, and then the cities just get worse, and then the problems of you leave behind start lapping up the beaches of the islands of milk-and-honey like some inexorable tide of the sea social decay. And the sea rises steadily, because we keep throwing our garbage into it.

    Staying in the city is the hard choice for someone who has "made it". The city is dirty and dangerous, we just hurry through it, trying not to look at the neglect caused by everyone else also not looking at it.

    "Somebody Else's Problem" has a way of eventually coming around to haunt and trouble everyone, but doing the hard thing to address it is, well, not easy.
     
  15. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    #15
    My point is that staying isn't necessary any better if you are unable to fix the problem. Sure, you tried to fight the good fight but in the process you failed and your kids got a crappy education from a crappy school and now have a statistically higher chance of being stuck in crappy job in crappy City A (to go back to my original example) and the vicious cycle continues.

    People will go where they see opportunity. Maybe it's in a city, maybe it's in a suburb. Urban decay is a real thing but so is gentrification. So, yes, fixing problems is a good thing but it takes more than saying "we should stay and fix this" to actually fix it.
     
  16. AhmedFaisal Guest

    #16
    Repeat/expand from my other post... what do you want us to do, tell the gangs to be nice to each other and please please don't rob and shoot us? Like that's going to work. Democrats and Republicans for decades have promised to clean up the inner cities and nothing ever happened. People keep voting in the same idiots and shills and then they complain that the outcome is zero. What do you expect us to do about it? We donate, we volunteer and do our part, doesn't go anywhere. In fact to add icing to the cake, my wife got accosted and harrassed multiple times outside of the place she volunteers at by the same people she is trying to help. But I am just waiting for the first poster coming out and saying: "She probably deserved it for being an uppity bitch...".

    It's tiresome. So yeah, blame us that we have no desire to expose our future children to that environment.
     
  17. Grey Beard macrumors 65816

    Grey Beard

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2005
    Location:
    The Antipodes.
    #17
    I agree it is very tiresome and I thought from other threads that you were planning on breeding in Germany.

    KGB:rolleyes:
     
  18. NickZac macrumors 68000

    NickZac

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2010
    #18
    "Urban revitalization" has been adopted at a slower pace than by other western nations. We still have the concept of "work in the city, live in the suburbs/country". However, this is (slowly) changing.

    This shouldn't come as a surprise as the US' population and demographic statistics and policies are generally somewhere between developing countries and more developed 'old' European nations.
     
  19. Sydde thread starter macrumors 68020

    Sydde

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    #19
    TBH, I fault no one for their urban flight. It is, IMAO, a symptom of a much larger issue, the "I would rather not have to look at Somebody Else's Problem". I see the real solution as working toward community building, which the structure of the suburbs tends to work against. The difficulty is getting the process underway (note, I say "working toward", not "bringing about", this would be a slow turn).

    Fundamentally, I support many of the talking points of OWS, but again, their methods appear antagonistic, which does not foster needed coöperation and compromise. Antagonism leads to resistance and escalation, a tradition in our society that we somehow have to work past.
     
  20. malman89 macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Location:
    Michigan
    #20
    I'm currently and originally from the Detroit Metro Area. I was born in Warren, we lived a bit in Detroit, then we slowly moved west growing up. My parents are like many of those in the region that grew up during the white flight era. The last thing they want to deal with is the city.

    I on the other hand am actively seeking employment and then hopefully to move back into Detroit - and not just hipster Corktown (I'm not hip anyway) or solely yuppie Midtown. I currently work and live just outside the city, but it's not the same. There's a huge pull from the 18-34 (especially 18-24/28ish) age bracket to kind of go against their parents and seek to revitalize the city of Detroit.

    It's not going to be easy or quick, but it's possible. Just a few years ago Corktown was just another mediocre Detroit neighborhood, but now it's teeming with local businesses and it's hard to find apartments. It's not perfect - there's still vacant lots and whatnot, but it's night and day. Midtown was also great to work or visit venues, it wasn't a really appealing place to live (like a Lincoln Park/Wrigley of Chicago), but it's sort of reached that point now.

    That's just two neighborhoods of many that are still struggling in the city, but it's clear turn around is possible with time and commitment. I hope to be a part of that.
     
  21. NickZac macrumors 68000

    NickZac

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2010
    #21
    Honestly I think urban revitalization will become something more common within the next decade and more so within the next. I could be wrong but I'm basing that off of demographic shift statistics I've worked with over the past 5 years. As thought processes change, this issue will change with it.
     
  22. Dagless macrumors Core

    Dagless

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Location:
    Fighting to stay in the EU
    #22
    A lot of the time people just don't have the energy. My job and life are so massively hectic right now that I don't have anything to spare in fighting against social injustice, improving broadband connections or cleaning up graffiti.

    Growing up I lived in an awful town. If I still lived there my single presence wouldn't have helped change it. I'd just be living in a place where I didn't trust my neighbours, where I have to spend more in travelling as all the local shops were closed.
     
  23. Happybunny macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    #23
    If you live in a very small country like the Netherlands, urban renewal is the only way to go. There just is not enough land to waste.
     
  24. twietee macrumors 603

    twietee

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    #24
    Besides the important ecological effects of a compact urbanization, in Germany, the great majority is coming back to the city because of lifestyle and or demographic reasons. The upper middleclass do like their pretty townhouses and the younger prefer the urban flair of former-ghetto Berlin Kreuzberg. It's becoming actually aweful expensive around here. While writing this, I know some avant-garde who plans going back to the country-side because all the other are leaving. ;)
     
  25. splitpea macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    Location:
    Among the starlings
    #25
    It definitely depends on which city. After a couple decades of mid-century urban decay, New York, Boston, San Francisco, Seattle, Philadelphia, even Pittsburgh are flourishing.

    Young people are flocking there not just to get rich but to enjoy the benefits of urban life (access to culture and nightlife and shopping other than big-box stores; public transit; being around like-minded people; and, yes, economic opportunity). I've read several articles lately about how people born in the 1980's and beyond are choosing urban over suburban life, even when they have a choice in an economic sense, and even as a place for raising families.

    The population density of cities makes a lot of things possible that aren't in the suburbs, from public transit (which when built properly in a dense-enough city is convenient; energy-efficient; inexpensive compared to car ownership; allows you to work, sleep, or entertain yourself on your commute; and makes it possible to get around at night without driving drunk or spending tons on cabs) to heating or cooling a building for as little as a tenth the energy cost per capita as in the suburbs due to the higher efficiency of larger heating/cooling systems and to construction methods and building sizes that minimize heat loss/gain, to high-speed internet (which it's economically infeasible to run out to low-density areas), to Ethiopian eateries and really odd specialty jewelry shops that simply wouldn't have sufficient patronage to survive elsewhere.

    The street outside my door isn't dirty or noisy or smelly or littered with homeless people, like some of the "I could never live in the city!" types seem to assume; there are no squats or crack houses in my neighborhood; and it's not just this way because I live in some ritzy spot -- far from it, my area is pretty darn middle-of-the-road.

    I just don't understand why living in close proximity to a lot of other people is disturbing. It's not like they can walk into your house or peek in your windows whenever they want to. In fact, if you have decent walls and floors, you don't ever have to be any more aware of your neighbors that you want to. Or is it just that being around people requires, you know, showing just a little bit of common courtesy in your life and that's too much effort?

    I love living in the city because there's always something to do, because I can get anywhere at any time of day without driving, because I can order any type of food at any hour of day and have it delivered right to my door, and because I see and learn something totally new every day. When I want some greenery, it's a few blocks' walk away, and I don't have to mow the lawn.

    On the flip side, there are other cities (Detroit comes to mind; I'm sure there are others) that are decaying at an accelerating pace. I'm sure one could write a dissertation on why a Pittsburgh might be renewing itself while a Detroit decays.
     

Share This Page