Glad to see freedom and democracy is working in Afghanistan!

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by yg17, Jan 22, 2008.

  1. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #1
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22789664/

    So does someone want to remind me again what we were supposed to be fighting for over there?
     
  2. themadchemist macrumors 68030

    themadchemist

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    #2
    This is why there will be no freedom, there will be no democracy, in the absence of secularism.
     
  3. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #3
  4. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #4
    Oil.
     
  5. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #5
    Oil pipeline. Not much oil in Afghanistan.

    Where's that bin Laden fellow that Bush doesn't worry to much about, by the way?
     
  6. Iscariot macrumors 68030

    Iscariot

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    #6
    It's because God said so.
     
  7. je1ani macrumors 6502

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    #7
    It's unfortunate that since 2005 the Afghanistan war has been swept under the rug as Iraq gets far more coverage. Most people don't even know we're still in Afghanistan. I seriously don't know wtf we're doin. My friend since 6 years old recently joined the Army leaving next week.
     
  8. MikeTheC Guest

    MikeTheC

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    #8
    It's unfortunate how those who basically "hate God" look to opportunities such as this very sad and unfortunate event to try and subtly make their case that, "Well, see? Religion is bad. We told you this is what you get when you let religion into your society."

    No, this is what happens when archaic eastern mud-hut dwellers cum petty dictators (or, in some cases, very rich oil-selling Sheiks who declare themselves an aristocracy) have a cult which runs a country and rules it's people (you'll note I did not use the word "citizens").

    And what are we in the western world -- and in the premier first-world country -- doing trying to analyze and excuse the deranged thought process of a bunch of whackos?

    I've actually met a couple people (younger folk, I think in maybe their late 20s in both cases) from Iraq and Afghanistan (by chance -- I don't lead a life where this is either likely or expected) and those guys were actually extremely well-educated, well-spoken and extremely well-mannered.

    And you know what they said to me? They were very glad to be here in the U.S. instead of over there, because there's freedom of opportunity, of self-determination, heck even freedom of religion -- true freedom of religion -- things which they knew they would never have under the so-called leadership of their home countries.

    Anyhow, point here being that we've probably long since accomplished what we can over there, short of killing off everyone older than maybe 30 and essentially "rebooting" those countries with fresh stock of western mindset people. Until they are willing to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, take ownership of their lives and their destiny, and have a will-to-change, it's never going to get better over there. All it is is a massive Hatfields vs. McCoys on steroids, particularly in Afghanistan. Iraq, well... they're better off in Iraq than in Afghanistan, but it's probably in many cases by matters of degree.

    Until then, I think we're just fooling ourselves.
     
  9. Iscariot macrumors 68030

    Iscariot

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    No, it's not. "This" is what happens when they have something we want, or form the cornerstone of our manifest destiny. I assure you, the fact that there are petty dictators out there has little to do with the first world's will to act.
     
  10. themadchemist macrumors 68030

    themadchemist

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    #10
    Religion isn't bad. Theocracy is bad, because it leads to things like this. Secularism frees religion--all religions--to practice without punishment. When one religion, even the majority religion, is given priority to dominate the public space through legal enforcement, the result is oppression. Secularism protects religion from government as much as it protects government from religion.

    OK. This frightening level of Orientalism demonstrates one reason that Western intervention seems always to fail. Please put these Rudyard Kipling, or at best, Samuel Huntington, arguments back where they belong: In the dust heap.

    And you are somehow surprised? Their optimism with the freedoms that this country guarantees through vigilant protection of freedom of expression and of religion stand in stark contrast to the unfortunate statements you made earlier in this post.

    Wow, just wow. Oh my Lord.
     
  11. schreck macrumors regular

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    #11
    Did you really type that? That has to be the most ridiculous thing that I've ever read on Mac Rumors. As you accuse those who are without god as being immoral you go on to make this statement. As the one said above me; wow, just wow.

    Sickening.
     
  12. MikeTheC Guest

    MikeTheC

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    #12
    Wow, you two really missed the point.

    I'm not advocating we slaughter millions of people over there. Not for an instant. And in any event, it would wind up causing us more grief than anything else.

    What I said that you obviously misinterpreted is that about the only way we could "effectively" start those countries over again ourself, as in "nation building", and to get the in-country cultures to be what we think of as civilized and responsible and stable, it'd just about take that.

    In other words, we probably should finish up what we're doing and get the heck out of there as fast as is reasonable.
     
  13. yg17 thread starter macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #13
    I wasn't using this to spread my "hate of god" as you call it. Religion has nothing to do with why I posted this. I posted this because we're supposed to be bringing freedom to Afghanistan, and obviously, we're not. The reasoning behind these laws could have come from anywhere, religious or not. It just so happens that they do come from religion, but their source is irrelevant. These laws that resulted in this guy's death sentence could've come from an atheist or some other secular source and I still would've posted this thread, because it shows that our mission in Afghanistan has been a complete and utter failure.

    Islam is no more of a cult than Christianity is. And I find your use of "mud-hut dwellers" very offensive.

    You seem surprised that they're well-educated, well-spoken and well-mannered. Please tell me that you don't actually think that everyone over there acts like the morons you see on TV blowing themselves and vowing to destroy the western world. If you do believe that, then don't defend your fellow christians when someone claims that they're all as wacko and extreme as Fred Phelps, because it's basically the same thing.
     
  14. MikeTheC Guest

    MikeTheC

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    #14
    Islam (the religion, not the extremist faction) is a religion, just the same as Judaism and Christianity are religions. And if you can't -- or simply are unwilling -- to distinguish between a religion and a cult, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    Do I think that all people who are born and raised in the middle east are a bunch of gun-waving, bomb-wearing ignorant savage whackos?

    Is this a serious question?

    I said "actually" and used other such descriptive words so it would be clear I was making a distinction between them and the extremists over there. That's all. It's my general understanding there's actually a lot of educated people in places such as Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Pakistan and India, and so forth and so on. I don't view it as a shock, I view it as a good thing. It's probably what's kept much of the middle east in check. It's a good thing for them, a good thing for us, it's good for everybody.

    Sad to say, but the educated of Iraq's population are probably better educated in a lot of respects than our own people over here.
     
  15. yg17 thread starter macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #15
    Straight from Leopard's dictionary:

    Cult: a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object

    Last time I checked, that fits the description of Islam, Christianity, Judaism and every other religion exactly. So no, I can't distinguish between a religion and a cult, because they're the same thing. Society has given cult a slightly different meaning (smaller groups, more crazy beliefs), but in the end, they're all the same.
     
  16. EricNau Moderator emeritus

    EricNau

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    #16
    Yes, but I when many say "cult" they really mean "occult," which carries a very different meaning.

    A cult is, by definition, a religious organization (Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, etc.) whereas an occult refers to practices or beliefs in supernatural, mystical or magic phenomenon, and is based entirely upon the concept of secrecy.
     
  17. themadchemist macrumors 68030

    themadchemist

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    #17
    So your first problem is geography. Pakistan and India are not part of the Middle East.

    Your second problem is religion. Iraq and Iran are majority Shi'a Islam; Palestine and Pakistan are majority Sunni Islam; and India is majority Hindu.

    Your third problem is politics. Iraq has a semi-stable government set up by outside intervention that is attempting to divide power between Shi'a and Sunni (and Kurds, whenever people get bored of killing the poor folks); Iran has a theocratic oligarchy with the trappings of a parliamentary system; Palestine is subject to a power struggle between a terrorist group and a corrupt quasi-moderate group, but under the great economic and political pressures of depending on Israel for resources; Pakistan has a military dictatorship that is more secular than any other Muslim country besides Turkey, with a history of secular founders; and India is the world's most populous democracy.

    Your fourth problem is alliances. Iraq and Iran are sworn enemies (though that might change with the new power shifts); India and Pakistan have nuclear weapons pointed at each other.

    My problem with all of your views expressed in this thread has nothing to do with saying you're going to massacre people. I knew you didn't mean that, though it was shocking that you would even write it here. What bothers me is the strong sense of Western superiority that you exhibit. If only there were more Westerners there, if only people behaved like they do in the West (as an alternative to being "savages"). This is what the renowned scholar Edward Said called Orientalism--redefining the East in terms of Western constructs in such a way that makes the East appear monolithic, exotic, and backwards. It was the chief intellectual problem under the travesty that was colonialism, and it is one of the great challenges that lie beneath our current neo-colonial adventures.

    The West is not automatically superior to the East. Accomplishments here are not automatically better. Religion, philosophy, and political structure here are not necessarily more reasoned, more intelligent. This does not mean that we cannot evaluate and consider the differences between various countries' structures and institutions, but just as we would never say that America and England are the same, we cannot look patronizingly on the vast expanse of land that contains the lion's share of the world's population and claim it a unit.
     

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