Good for Jeb

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by citizenzen, Apr 6, 2014.

  1. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #1
    I'm cynical enough to see this as a ploy to pander to the hispanic vote, however, I will take a moment to appreciate the sentiment regardless of his motivation.

    It will be interesting to see how well this resonates with the right.

     
  2. iBlazed macrumors 68000

    iBlazed

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    #2
    I guess he doesn't realize that most of the immigrants we legalize will vote Democrat. :D
     
  3. malman89 macrumors 68000

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    #3
    The positive spin is that he doesn't care and wants to express his honest opinion.

    The negative spin is that he'll keep pushing comments like this to change those votes.

    I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt and support the former until it's clear either way. I mean the next election isn't for ages, so I'm not going to stress over it either way until then.
     
  4. 7thson macrumors 6502a

    7thson

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    #4
    I'm always encouraged when I hear politicians say things that humanize themselves. That said, they are politicians and are more than likely going to contradict a position they've held if it's expedient for their career. Doesn't matter from left, right or centre(tip o' the hat for our friends across the pond:D).
     
  5. citizenzen thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #5
    And others.

    Lord knows illegal immigrants have been dehumanized for decades.
     
  6. Southern Dad macrumors 65816

    Southern Dad

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    #6
    Of course, once we give them work permits they can come out of the shadows. They can quit working those low paying crop picking jobs and walk into our factories. Mexicans tend to be hard workers with great work ethic. They only want to work hard and save some money to send home.

    Once they issue the work permits they will clear e-verify. Guess what, not only can they apply for those high paying factory jobs but employers cannot discriminate against them based on national origin. I guess American workers had better step up their game because this President has said he's issuing the work permits with or without the Congress.

    We'll see how happy the unions are as these Spanish speaking laborers start getting those jobs.
     
  7. thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

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    #7
    What would you propose? I get the issue of not wanting to reward people who enter the country illegally, but this has been a talking point for decades. Ejecting all illegal immigrants seems unrealistic just in terms of the resources that would be required. Of course then they would also need to tighten border security.
     
  8. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

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    #8
    Or, we all can start paying more for our fresh fruit and vegetables, as a more-free labor market raises wages.
     
  9. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #9
    figure out a way for them to EARN their stay here. they pay up to 8k to cross the border, how about 25k to become residents?
     
  10. thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

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    #10
    Ahh indentured servitude. They are likely to find work on farms no matter what. I suspect that if they were legalized, you would see an increase in farming regulations along with that legalization. The reason for this is the toxicity of that level of pesticide exposure. It's more likely to be overlooked when the work is performed by illegal immigrants. Once they no longer have to look the other way, it's likely to face higher levels of scrutiny. As for 25k to become residents, ideally they would end up as taxpayers themselves. People often get too concerned with protectionism, even though it rarely works. We need to figure out what infrastructure could really flourish here, and it has to be more than tech. Tech arguably consolidates jobs by improving efficiency, yet it makes little sense to simply assign "busy work" to people who still require means of survival after being displaced from long term roles.

    I think it may be a very difficult problem to address given population density and increasing average age. I'm not sure what would fix it though. Lack of investment isn't necessarily an issue of what people have already been taxed. The return on other markets has simply been more attractive in recent years.
     
  11. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #11
    simply handing out amnesty only sends the message that its ok to come here illegally & just wait it out before another amnesty is pushed, drop the price to 12k if you want. or how about 4-6 years of military service?
     
  12. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

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    #12
    That has been a path at times. However, to make it work now would require staffing up the military, which neither Republicans nor Democrats are up for right now, Republicans preferring to overextend existing boots on the ground, and backfill with contractors, while Democrats generally would like to downsize.
     
  13. thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

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    #13
    As much as I despise the way the military is used, that doesn't sound like a bad method. Perhaps the military could then cut down on its advertising and recruiting budget to help balance things. It would obviously require certain military staff, just different kinds of staff. I hope you understand I just dislike policies that encourage perpetual poverty by adding debt to existing poverty. Criminal behavior seems to be more in the later generations of immigrants who were not able to make it out of initial poverty.
     
  14. citizenzen thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #14
    House Armed Services Committee [led by Republicans] just killed the idea.
     
  15. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 603

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    #15
    Jeb Bush has always been against the way most Republicans/Conservatives choose to handle immigration. Most likely due to his wife. So as much as I don't like his policies in just about everything else, I can't be bias towards him on immigration.
     
  16. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #16
    Only because the Republican Party doesn't do anything for Hispanics.
     
  17. Southern Dad macrumors 65816

    Southern Dad

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    #17
    The reason the illegals take farming jobs is that they can work without documentation. Once you issue them work permits, they no longer have to take the low paying jobs in the shadows. They will be able to legally apply for our better paying factory jobs. Being that they are such hard workers, they will get them.

    I believe they should do just like the State of Georgia did in 2011. Georgia passed a law making it illegal to hire an illegal alien. As a result the illegals fled the state. It had unintended consequences. Georgia found that even though there was high unemployment in the state they couldn't get people to take the jobs picking crops.

    Georgians would rather sit on the couch that do hard work. However, the law sure cleared out the Home Depot parking lots. I believe someone coined the phrase "Self Deportation".
     
  18. thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

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    #18
    Admittedly I do wonder if it has anything to do with the exposure to pesticides. Point taken about the law there. I was unaware of it. If it influenced them that much, it must have been enforced and carried a stiff enough penalty to cause dissuasion.
     
  19. Southern Dad macrumors 65816

    Southern Dad

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    #19
    In an usual step part of the law was directed against those that would employ them. Georgia's law said that if you hired someone who did clear e-verify you would be charged with a state crime. The illegals figured out that they could not get work so they went where it was easier to find work. They left for neighboring states.

    The crops that were lost were because they weren't picked. Mostly berries and melons.

    The Law of Unintended Consequences: Georgia's Immigration Law Backfires - Forbes
     
  20. thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

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    #20
    Well yeah it sounds like it was enforced. If they aren't happy with the consequences, they should have tried to implement something like a guest worker program. Apart from that the flow of immigrants originating from Central and South American countries is typically a matter of economic conditions in that region. Most of them would presumably prefer predominantly Spanish speaking countries due to a lower reliance on English for skilled labor. I say lesser because a lot of younger people in those regions speak perfect English. The difference in dialect is also significant, but it's much easier to bridge.
     
  21. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #21
    Make it a 50k fine per illegal hired without verification.

    Move corn and sugar subsidies to fruits.

    It would also help if farmers weren't cheap asses when paying their workers. Most people don't mind paying a little extra, farmers markets are pretty popular here even in the middle of the city. If you can't find someone to work in your crops for minimum wage you probably should be paying more.

    I'd be willing to allow anyone with a high school mastery of English to be fast tracked for immigration, everyone else should be qued behind those who are following the process and have to wait it out in their own country.
     
  22. Southern Dad macrumors 65816

    Southern Dad

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    #22
    Guest workers would be legal to hire under Georgia law. It's the undocumented ones that were illegal to hire. There was already a federal law but this administration had stated it would not enforce it. So, Georgia passed a state law. Employers didn't want to risk it.

    The big issue with pay is productivity. Experienced workers like the Hispanics that had been picking made $15-$20 per hour. The American workers weren't willing to work that hard but wanted the same rates of pay.
     
  23. thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

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    #23
    Even with subsidies, not all crops sold in the US originate here. A lot of fruit is imported. There are also farms in less subsidized states. As for farmer's markets, I used to visit one in Hollywood frequently due to pesticide free produce, bison meat, etc. It was great when I was actually up early on a Sunday.

    I was unaware that it was legal. There's no reasonable way for me to compare American workers on productivity here, as I don't have any figures.
     
  24. Southern Dad macrumors 65816

    Southern Dad

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    #24
    Migrant & Seasonal Farmworkers - US Department of Labor
    H-2A Temporary Agricultural Workers (Visa) - US Department of Homeland Security

    In other states like Maine and North Carolina, they also found that they could not get the Americans to work picking berries even though they were paying $20 per hour.

    Impatient With Congress, Blueberry Producers Are Replacing Migrant Workers With Machines
     
  25. TheAppleFairy macrumors 68020

    TheAppleFairy

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    #25

    I'll do it, is it an "all you can eat" job? :D

    I wonder what the quota is to keep the job and how many berried I could eat without getting fired.
     

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