Google memo; common sense? You're fired!

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Galacticos, Aug 8, 2017.

  1. Galacticos macrumors 6502a

    Galacticos

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  2. daflake macrumors 6502a

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    #2
    Can't read the memo as the connection closes on my box. However, if it goes against the code of conduct then yes, the author set himself up for failure.
     
  3. arkitect macrumors 601

    arkitect

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    #3
    Just curious why you think this memo should be seen as "common sense".

    Anyway, having read it I think the author is obvioulsy not a good fit for a "left leaning" organisation.

    It reads to me as just another diatribe against positive discrimination / affirmative action etc.

    I guess the author is male?
     
  4. daflake macrumors 6502a

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    #4
    Yep, he is...
     
  5. R.Perez, Aug 8, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017

    R.Perez macrumors 6502

    R.Perez

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    #5
    Anyone who thinks this memo is "common sense" doesn't understand gender whatsoever. Glad this guy is gone, see ya buddy, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
     
  6. JayMysterio macrumors 6502

    JayMysterio

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    #6
    1. Freedom of Speech does not bestow freedom from consequence.

    2. Know your audience.
     
  7. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #7
    He's going to be blackballed throughout svl now. Good luck. If he basically called Google a leftist echo chamber he probably would have had luck, bringing the gender assumptions in was a bad idea. No doubt that these companies lower the bar to get more women in though.
     
  8. DrewDaHilp1 macrumors 6502a

    DrewDaHilp1

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  9. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #9
    Do you have anything to back up your assumption or did you just pull it to of your arse.
     
  10. s2mikey macrumors 68020

    s2mikey

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    #10
    I believe they do - and I have two daughters. Heres the deal.... whether society wants to accept it or not, there are certain careers/jobs that men are usually a better fit for just like there are careers/jobs which women are better suited for. Are there exceptions? Sure, but trying to shove females into roles that they really arent cut out for, or men for that matter doesnt do anyone any good. Companies going out of their way to hit some fabricated, BS percentage of women or whatever else is just dumb. Doesnt mean women cant pursue xxxxxx career. It just means that certain jobs are better filled by a man or a woman. Sorry but thats the deal.

    For the record - my oldest daughter is pursuing a career in Radiology and the other is undecided. :)
     
  11. Galacticos thread starter macrumors 6502a

    Galacticos

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    #11
    There are behavioural and psychological differences between men and women when it comes to group differences. After that has been acknowledged (as has been demonstrated in over 60 years of psychology), why not talk about how those differences should influence decisions.

    It seems to me all he was saying was working backward from outcomes isn't sensible. Is it?
     
  12. villicodelirant macrumors 6502

    villicodelirant

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    #12
    Right, it's not.
    It's much more than that.

    It's a series of well supported scientific theories, with copious citations, and one author's - with a PhD in biology - conclusions on how to leverage them in order to... well, effectively bring in more women in tech.

    I can't understand how that is not a noble purpose[*] or a sound and scientific way of pursuing it.

    I do understand how some theories, although well supported, are likely to rub some imbeciles the wrong way, and I do understand how Google's internal policy might seek to forbid the above.

    But, the bottom line is, a perfectly good and honest person lost his/her/their/xer/xazba (happy?) job because of having an opinion.
    And a well-circumstantiated one at that.
    And one that my late left-wing, european father would have considered extraordinarily progressive.

    That's wrong.

    I am frankly beginning to understand Alex Jones listeners and Breitbart readers.
    This is devolving into a civil war, and in a war you are obliged to fight back.

    Oh, yes. The punchline? A trans male.
    And nice ad hominem there.

    [*] No, I don't think it's a noble purpose, like world peace or ending poverty; in fact I don't give a rat's ass about the shape and size of my coworkers' genitalia, but surely it has to be a noble purpose in the eyes of those who attack the author?
     
  13. A.Goldberg, Aug 8, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017

    A.Goldberg macrumors 68000

    A.Goldberg

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    #13
    I assumed this was some sexist garbage reading the headlines and articles before I actually read the document. I suggest reading the full document before drawing conclusions. I think many have been conditioned to have a knee-jerk offensive reaction whenever someone mentions disparities between race or gender, but these can be important and meaningful discussions and I welcome anyone to disagree with my thoughts.

    I will prefice this by saying I have all the respect for women and promote their advancement for rights, equality, and success. I was raised in a very matriarchal family. My mother is in her early 60's and is a orthopedic surgeon... probably the most male domenated specialty in medicine- especially in her generation. My sister is a DMD, MD oral surgeon, another male dominated profession. My significant other is in her MD residency and have no problem admitting she is smarter and more resilient than I am. Woman are tremendously capable, often possess traits men do not and therefore approach problems differently- hence they can create an entirely new dimension and dynamic in the workplace/industry.

    On The Document's Content...
    I think the article is actually a well intentioned and balanced argument for the most part (I can talk about that later). But my gripes are overshadowed by the general message. The author's intent was not to be sexist. He (presumably a he) is not saying all women exhibit certain traits or bad at programming. He's saying that the natural, statistical distribution of women's personality traits and programming skills are different than males. He's not saying women should not be hired for these jobs, he's merely saying the best candidates should get the jobs- male or female, but the distributions should be expected to be different. He goes further to suggest changes should be made to help support women's success (based on the inherent differences between most men and momen) and therefore support the company's success.

    I can't speak to woman's programming skills, but to deny that there are not statistical differences in the way men and women process emotions, approach problems, make decisions, perceive values, etc is ridiculous. As much as current progressive politics wants to say males and females are exactly the same, merely a difference in genitalia, it goes against an overwhelming abundance of social science and psychological research.

    I extrapolate from the writing that Google's structure, despite its forced efforts for diversity and inclusion, benefits male strengths and traits. Instead, the company should reconsider how they can make most women be successful with their inherent strengths and traits. In other words, rather than trying to fit square pegs into round holes, maybe there should also be square holes.

    On Google's Reponse...
    I feel dialogue is paramount in the health and advancement of relationships, businesses, communities, societies, etc. Being or feeling unheard is not healthy at all. I don't work in the tech industry- Maybe this guy is completely off base. But I must say Google's VP of Diversity response only highlights the author's concerns about the inability to have a discussion because opposing viewpoints are dismissed.

    On The Firing...
    I do think Google probably has the right to fire the author. There are appropriate and inappropriate ways of voicing opinions in the workplace. Sending out a mannefesto to hundreds-thousands of employees on the company network does not seem appropriate to me. While more appropriate methods were probably dismissed, that doesn't give him permission to do what he did. As an employee of a company, this doesn't exactly fall under 1st ammendment protection. As a voluntary employee, he has the choice whether or not to agree to work within the specific corporate culture.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see his firing end up in court though. He will say he was wrongfully terminated for political beliefs. Google will say they fired him due to inappropriate conduct.
     
  14. Gutwrench, Aug 8, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017

    Gutwrench macrumors 65816

    Gutwrench

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    #14
    If Google feels he violated their policy, SFN.

    Who did he send this to, btw?

    I guess I'm too old fashioned. What happened to going to work and just doing your job? If you don't like the mandatory training then find a new job.

    Maybe he has thought this through and being terminated wasn't unexpected.

    I predict he'll be awarded unemployment benefits if Google decides to fight him on it.

    If Google encourages political speech within the office and tolerates liberal views but punishes conservative views then maybe he has recourse for disparate treatment.

    Otherwise since a company (Google) is not the government an employee has virtually no First Amendment protection in the workplace.
     
  15. Galacticos thread starter macrumors 6502a

    Galacticos

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    #15
    Group differences between men and women aren't trivial, they're significant and real.

    If you think positive discrimination is justified, you are acknowledging these differences.
     
  16. villicodelirant macrumors 6502

    villicodelirant

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    #16
    Precisely this.
    It is simplicity itself.

    Anybody who works in tech knows that working at Google means, for example, ****** work-life balance but high status.
    The author points out that according to published research in our society men are more status driven and more willing to have ****** working hours, therefore more interested in working at Google.

    Meanwhile, brilliant women are more likely to go work at, I don't know, Netflix.

    Apparently, that's a sexist view.

    Not unlikely, I agree entirely.
    However, this does not change the fact that the outraged idiots who are celebrating the author's firing are... well, bloody idiots.
     
  17. daflake macrumors 6502a

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    #17
    The common sense part is that he fired it off at work and didn't get with HR to see if it would acceptable. It doesn't matter how great you think it was or if it was scientifically backed, the bottom line is that it was against corporate policy and he paid the price for that.
     
  18. villicodelirant macrumors 6502

    villicodelirant

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    #18
    Of course. I agree.
    However, I was commenting the contents of the memo.
    Moreover, I don't think the entire left-leaning internet is outraged at the fact that he went against corporate policy.
     
  19. TonyC28 macrumors 65816

    TonyC28

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    #19
    All he has to do now is say he identifies as a female and this will all go away.
    --- Post Merged, Aug 8, 2017 ---
    This times 100. The memo wasn't what I expected at all.
     
  20. poloponies, Aug 8, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017

    poloponies macrumors 68030

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    #20
    All of that presupposes that we don't introduce biases early in the game that lead to such "better fit" roles. There's nothing inherently different between men and women that preclude success in virtually any field save for those requiring extreme physical strength. And allowing companies, that are more often than not managed and controlled by white men, to simply rely on their judgment in hiring isn't a real solution.
     
  21. R.Perez macrumors 6502

    R.Perez

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    #21
    These so-called gender differences are demonstrably the result of culture not biology as all of you citing "social science" are so dutifully ignoring.
     
  22. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #22
    Google is a tech company, and as a tech company they have built some of the best tech in the world and are extremely successful. HR comes to them and says there's a problem though, there are too many white and Asian males in the company. Now they need to take "unconscious bias" courses aka "don't bring me another ****ing white guy". Judge your next hiring decision.
     
  23. A.Goldberg, Aug 8, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017

    A.Goldberg macrumors 68000

    A.Goldberg

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    #23
    Let say that your statement may is entirely true, that only culture or environment affects differences in sexes- does that change the reality that change the outcome that there are statistically significant, observable differences between adult males and females?

    It is known that there are sexually diamorphic differences between male and female brains- structurally and functionally. Some of it could be related to environment, but undoubtably genetics plays a role. We know various hormones, which obviously differ between sexes and throughout one's lifecycle, have profound effects of neurological functioning and development and therefore behavior. There is so much research into this I'm not sure how you can conclude that differences between male and female sexes are solely the result of cultural influence.

    It's neurological research like these that support the idea that homosexuality and transgenderism are not "choices" but rather likely have a biological cause.

    This is not a eugenicists argument either. It's about best utilizing differences in gender (however they might arise) to be used advantageously. There are certainly social issues in play. But I don't think biology should be underestimated. This isn't about segregating genders further. It's about how they can be used more successfully.
     
  24. villicodelirant, Aug 8, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017

    villicodelirant macrumors 6502

    villicodelirant

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    #24
    This would be an extraordinary statement needing some proof, which I don't believe you have.

    But let us assume it true for a second, just for the sake of argument: now what?

    Doesn't change by an inch the conclusions of the memo, which is to say, for example, that if in our society, in the present time, men are more status driven, therefore if recruiting emphasizes status among its benefits rather than flexible hours, it risks driving talented women away.

    Unless you think Google should concern itself with changing our culture instead of maximizing profit by attracting the best talent (good luck convincing the shareholders).

    But we do. Each society assigns roles, and there is little Google HR can do about that, except buying its own nation...

    "Precludes", certainly not.
    However, it is my belief that gender roles in societies emerge spontaneously in such a way that it maximizes the society's well being, and this can mean getting the most out of each gender's average inclinations.

    Before you go there: no, it's not the same thing as slavery, which is the result of a colonial process in which one society subjugates another.

    Also note that I've said average, which means that gender roles do make things harder for outliers, ie for that 1 man out of 10 who would be a great dressmaker or ballet dancer - and I believe it is our duty to make things easier for that lone Billy Elliot.

    To be fair, I do also believe that we're stuck with many roles that were optimal when they emerged (let's say one or two generation ago) but are not optimal now.

    I don't think those are an especially big problem (not bigger than global warming, or the renewed threat of nuclear war, or...), and spontaneous economic processes will change that, giving us new, optimal roles -- surely, unless you live in one of the poorest countries in the world, you are already seeing women that are not relegated to the kitchen and men that do other than plowing fields bare-chested.

    Oh, well, to be honest it did work perfectly fine for most of capitalism's history.
     
  25. BigMcGuire Contributor

    BigMcGuire

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    #25
    As a programmer who values his job dearly (because I care for my wife) - I will make observations only to the best of my ability. I have met only a few (1-2) of female programmers in real life. 99.999% of my coworkers are male. College classes that offer programming courses are 99.999% male (at least the ones I have gone to).

    My wife is learning R programming for her work in research at the university. She's actually pretty good at it (as a programmer to a programmer only) and was able to grasp how to work with the language all on her own without any assistance from me. My wife is easily 4x better at math than I am and I often go to her for help in the area of math.

    I find the whole topic to be incredibly interesting because the field I am in (computer programming) is definitely run by mostly males.

    Saying something this divisive publicly in an organization like Google is only asking to be fired imo. Tolerance for other opinions is not something that is .... tolerated, especially when any other opinion but their own is sexist, racist, misogynistic, etc... How could he not expect a backlash? That was kind of his point, I guess.


    I see a lot of counter arguments / posts are bringing up how nursing is mostly a female job market and how STEM only works to bring females to engineering/science while there is no push to bring men into female jobs. --- found this video fun. This cat works with lasers :)
     

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