Greeks Vote Today

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by needfx, Jan 25, 2015.

  1. needfx, Jan 25, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2015

    needfx macrumors 68040

    needfx

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    #1
    An important election is being held today, in which Greeks will choose between prolonged austerity measures but within the eurozone or for the promise of less austerity measures with the risk of being booted out of the eurozone.

    It is true that we have been widely responsible for what has come about to our country & economy, by over-borrowing to sustain a huge, unproductive public sector & its deficits, and as voters, we have re-elected the same two political parties over & over again for the past 40 years which have been dipped in back-alley, under the table agreements for any scenario you can imagine, such as public sector trade unions, armament & technology programs in collaboration with major EU countries and so on and so forth. It was brought up in the Europarliament that while we were being bailed out, we were forced to buy weapons by France & Germany (rafal planes, submarines etc). It is also worth mentioning that the public sector, which was everyone's dream working for, up until the regulations imposed by the troika, no one could be fired irrelevant the reason. Even if murder was involved, yes, we do have a case, where a convicted public servant is in jail and is still paid his salary (...). Ever since this changed, all public sector & trade union voters who perpetuated this sick democracy, have moved to SYRIZA, the very possible new majority party in the Greek parliament.

    SYRIZA is a left wing party comprised by 16 smaller left wing parties that became unified in 2003. The polyphony often emitted by this party creates confusion and there is no clean cut plan suggested to date, with mixed announcements being made on what it plans to do should it be elected. These range from letting Greece default on its debt, attempting renegotiations of the EU/IMF bailout, and even leaving the Eurozone and reintroducing a national currency of unknown ROE value. Various polls place SYRIZA ahead in the election outcome, ranging from 2% to 5%. As stated above, this party is among others supported by public sector, labor unions, fired public sector employees (the long time notion that public sector employees could/would never be fired has been overturned), unemployed individuals spanning in all age groups and conspiracy theorists of all kinds.

    While not all Greeks fall into this sick category with private sector labor being one of the most overworked & underpaid in the EU, however, the high percentage (50%) of youth unemployment is mostly because they don't care to work since low market wages are equivalent to the state unemployment wages and are further supported by parents who still have enough cash flow to maintain their offspring.

    On the other hand, banks over lending are not by any chance innocent of their actions, and the majority of the bailout was not about saving Greece, but about saving the EU banking system from a destructive monetary collapse.

    As a Greek citizen, I find myself perplexed at the complexity of Greece's issues, but I voted for stability, even if it means it will cost more at a personal level, instead of the even more costy scenario of being outside the Eurozone, with a new national currency being reintroduced (eg GRD). In such a case, several aspects of the local economy will be affected, since the introduction of a new currency in a weak and destabilized economy will surely result in high depreciation/devaluation & inflammation of the new currency as soon as it is minted. Restricted cash flow will be –probably- imposed in order to prevent attempted bank runs, GDP/GNP indexes will run wild & energy cost (oil, electricity) is bound to rise overnight. However, probable restriction in cash flow will not be imposed on transactions deriving from economic activity. For a time prices will be expressed in dual currency, either in USD/GRD or EUR/GRD. Instability & transitional period might last from 30 to 90 days, but it is very difficult to accurately predict.

    Bash on, we partly deserve it, but so do other major players of the unelected heads of the EU (Barozo & Co) and now Greeks are possibly reacting with their vote for a party that is dangerously unpredictable, which supports local terrorist groups & individuals, has no clear plan on what to do with a country as dipped in excrement as ours, and having their heads bloated over the potentiality of taking on power & the global attention they enjoy at this point in time.
     
  2. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #2
    If a Chinese, Indian and Greek companies were selling a service for a thousand dollars I'd pick them in this order - China and then India and Greece would probably be tied.

    The problem is that Indians are a lot cheaper than Greeks.
     
  3. needfx thread starter macrumors 68040

    needfx

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    #3
    China is already outsourcing to African countries so it will remain at the top of your list.
     
  4. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #4
    It's not just about the price it's about competence.

    To be fair I did think when I visited Greece fairly recently that the food was excellent and very good value.
     
  5. needfx thread starter macrumors 68040

    needfx

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    agreed!

    and here's a short list of what Greeks are competent for

    -Shipping Industry. Among the top in the world and has a catalytic role in the global shipping industry, claiming 7th place in the world and 2nd place in the EU. Greek interests control 16.25% of the world fleet and 46.7% of the EU fleet in terms of deadweight tonnage capacity (DWT).

    -Tourism, and that's because we are geographically blessed. Turkey is a better player in terms of competitive pricing, services, infrastructure and deal striking.

    Well, this sums it up.

    ----------

    Voting ends in 1h10m
     
  6. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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  7. needfx thread starter macrumors 68040

    needfx

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    #7
    Well, we're good at making culinary delicacies, but our export capabilities have been limited. Only now are we becoming more competent.

    We're both good at raki & ouzo.
     
  8. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #8
    I'm following this election with close interest.

    To that list I'd add, olive oil, wine, the vocabulary of politics and philosophy, the whole idea of theatre, a stunning culture and history….
     
  9. needfx, Jan 25, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2015

    needfx thread starter macrumors 68040

    needfx

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    #9
    As much I would like to be proud of the Greece's ancient history (in bold above), I am sad to say that the average modern Greek has nothing in common with those virtues or forward thinking.

    I could also add to the list some more, such as math, physics, medicine & astronomy.

    I would also like to mention, that modern Greeks that make us proud, eg prominent scientists in any sector, are Greeks who have relocated abroad. It is extremely hard for brilliant minds to shine in this country, we make no time or effort to nourish them which has resulted to fast paced brain drain in recent years.
     
  10. aaronvan, Jan 25, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2015

    aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #10
    My wife and I honeymooned on Santorini and Mykonos. Spectacularly gorgeous. Someday I'd like to visit the mainland.

     
  11. needfx thread starter macrumors 68040

    needfx

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    #11
    I am verifying the exit-poll quote you mentioned above

    we're ****ed
     
  12. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #12
    Winning an election is the easy bit for SYRIZA, but governing is going to be far more difficult.

    I cannot see the EU being very flexible about debts, and if Greece does leave the EURO, the Euro will survive.
     
  13. needfx thread starter macrumors 68040

    needfx

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    #13
    you're right on the money on all points.
     
  14. needfx thread starter macrumors 68040

    needfx

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    #14
    exit polls stipulate 3rd place is between neonazi party Golden Dawn & center party The River

    I can't believe how can people make such decisions (for the neonazi group).

    the party's heads are currently in prison pending trial for criminal association.
     
  15. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #15
    I think it's a bit rich to blame the people of Greece for the current crisis. The problem was that Greece was allowed to join the Euro before it was ready, and all of the EU if responsible for that. Making one of the poorest countries in the EU pay for the inequalities and the corruption that is rife throughout the EU is unjust. Who will lose the most if the Greeks default on their loans? The German banks....
     
  16. needfx thread starter macrumors 68040

    needfx

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    #16
    while the banks lent ceaselessly, so did we borrow in a similar fashion.

    it was a vicious circle, abruptly broken
     
  17. jnpy!$4g3cwk, Jan 25, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2015

    jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

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    #17
    The best olives and olive oil. Not sure about the wine -- what would you recommend?

    And, as it happens, I'm reviewing Greek philosophy right now.

    I don't suppose the average ancient Greek spent very much time studying, either. How well educated is the average Greek compared to the average German today?

    There is an interesting conflict in views here. It is a little bit like the constant problems with loans in the U.S. If a mortgage broker, who is presumably an expert, facilitates someone getting a loan they can't afford for a property they can't afford, who is at fault? The new homeowner who is living in their dream home, or, the mortgage broker? Or the system?

    If the UK, Germany, and France, facilitate Greek consumption, which also happens to benefit everybody from Mercedes Benz to the defense industries, who should pay back the loans? I can't lay 100% of the blame on Greece.

    One of the things that often comes up is the presumed enormous number of public servants in Greece. The fiscal conservatives Gary Becker and Richard Posner wrote an interesting blog challenge to this idea a few years ago:

    http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/2011/09/too-many-government-workersposner.html

    One thing that often has stood out to me when I compare places that I have visited is how effective is the government at collecting taxes? Do people pay their taxes? It sometimes comes up in funny ways when one is visiting a country, whether or not people take taxes seriously.
     
  18. needfx thread starter macrumors 68040

    needfx

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    #18
    We don't, we never did, and that's why SYRIZA has won ground.

    For 40 years, our tax system was ridiculous and non-existent. Then suddenly, we Greeks were called to pay for our second house, which we hardly had declared as existent.

    To date, freelancers & clients if they can avoid invoicing, they will, to avoid paying vat of 23%.

    So no. We're not serious at all.
     
  19. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502

    Bug-Creator

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    #19
    Don't worry, your just "****ed" in a slightly different way than before :rolleyes:

    Will be interesting how this plays out:

    a) they try to implement their promises right away -> EZB will (be forced to) stop supplying Greek banks -> hello NewDrachme

    b) they play for time while filling their own pockets (afterall they are still Greek politicians) and will be chased out befor the year ends
     
  20. needfx thread starter macrumors 68040

    needfx

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    #20
    Fair point that first one, and ref the second point, while we might have a high percentage of college/university graduates with a multilingual arsenal in their cv, apparently that has not affected positively our prospects, either domestically or internationally.

    ----------

    that, we are
     
  21. juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #21
    Greece won't leave the Euro. They will reach a compromise to lower the total amount due, and will refinance the rest. Don't forget, Spain's situation is not as critical, but it's similar, and I don't think the Euro zone would survive both Greece and Spain defaulting/leaving. The EU doesn't want that, the greeks don't want that, and the spaniards don't want that. The EU will cut its losses and there will be huge changes in Greece, with painful but necessary measures to combat fraud.
     
  22. fitshaced macrumors 68000

    fitshaced

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    #22
    Greece has got bills. They're multiplying.

    That should have been the oppositions slogan
     
  23. takao, Jan 26, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2015

    takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #23
    percentages of collage/university degrees can be misleading in terms of economical impact.

    Spain has roughly the same percentage as Germany(even higher than austria) but the dual education systems in place in Germany,Austria Switzerland,Netherland,Denmark,France, some countries on the Balkan etc. are often forgotten despite the fact that they provide a huge part of the specialized workforce in the production industries.
    There is a reason the system is copied by China and some other asian countries.

    back on topic: I'm pretty sure Tsipras knows that he hasn't got much of a chance to reduce the debt further. But i think extending the time frame and thus lessening the impact can be achieved politically.

    For many of his voters it will come as a huge dissapointment but to think that the likes of Merkel,Rutte,Stubb and some others are now going to cave in is naivé.

    Another option is perhaps to at least allow a limited & tightly controlled QE by greek national bank. The ECB QE has certain rules in place for countries under supervision (which currently means greece and cyprus) but i think since the interest-load for countries like france,spain and italy has been seriously reduced now, it could be possible.

    Cutting debt is off the table now since,opposed to 2010, it would now actually hit the public in the other european countries since they now own the bonds through central banks etc. opposed to private banks.

    For example 26 out of the 240 billion loaned to greece are coming from Spain. They can't really afford to lose those. Neither can France and Italy.

    edit: Leaving the euro wouldn't change much IMHO: sure the drachme would be really weak to support the tourism industry but it would also hit all the imports to greece. Also loans for the state would be much more expensive, as would be loans to the private industry.
    Also if it's even rumoured or anounced there would be a guaranteed bank run. Reforms would be necessary either way so there would be no advantage in leaving.

    The Euro is currently weakend on purpose by the ECB anyway so this should support Greece as well.
     
  24. needfx thread starter macrumors 68040

    needfx

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    #24
    SYRIZA has finally gathered 149 seats (out of 300), 2 seats short for majority, and formed today a coalition government with ANEL, a right wing party which gathered 13 seats, totaling 162 seats.
     
  25. aerok macrumors 65816

    aerok

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    #25
    I'm just happy that the Greeks are turning their back on fascism.
     

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