Guardian: More Israeli War Crimes. This can't be ignored.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by és:, Mar 24, 2009.

  1. és: macrumors 6502a

    és:

    #1
    A few days ago BlueVelvet posted this in the Israel/Palestine thread...

    Her post only received a handful of, mainly British, replies. Some of the replies were just questioning why there were so few replies to this.

    Today the Guardian have released an article, accompanied by three videos to show how the Israeli forces have behaved.

    You've got civilians being targeted by drones, you've got Civilians and children being used as 'human shields' and you've got hospitals and medical workers being targeted. All of these are war crimes and add to the list of other war crimes and breaches of international law by Israel.

    What I'd like to hear is the reaction to the vociferous supporters of Israel and their actions that posted here during the conflict. I'd also like to hear from Americans who's tax dollars go to pay for these crimes.

    My guess is that this thread won't even reach a second page.

    Note to mod: You're welcome to merge this with the Israel/Palestine thread, but I'd really appreciate if you could give it a bit of 'air time' for people to see it.
     
  2. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #2
    What is Israel thinking?!

    This is such a failure on both moral, tactical and strategic grounds. I have to wonder how these things came to pass - through policy, incompetence, disorganization? I wonder if the Israeli military is not quite the calibre it was in the past...

    BTW, as a pre-emptive comment - It is perfectly acceptable to support Israel's existence, or certain principles regarding it's right to defend itself etc. - and still think that this kind of stuff is completely unacceptable and should be investigated and punished.

    Example: I believe this should be investigated and punished. This position does not make me hate Israel, or make me love Hamas (and so on...)
     
  3. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #3
    Its sad to see this happening. The Palestinian groups behave badly too, but Israel is a western democracy.
     
  4. bruinsrme macrumors 601

    bruinsrme

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    #4
    I am very confident all Palestinian group are operating and behaving within the rules of whatever it is over there, conflict, war, etc.

    I would venture to say any reports, videos and claims from either sides are just a snapshot of reality.

    Ignoring this and other deployable acts from BOTH sides is an injustice to the people involved. Point fingers at either side or both but when it comes right down to it both sides are equal partners in this.

    Yes I support neither position.
     
  5. és: thread starter macrumors 6502a

    és:

    #5
    This is one of the myths that can't be allowed to stand.
     
  6. bruinsrme macrumors 601

    bruinsrme

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    #6
    Call it what you will; myth, war crimes and so on.
    there have got to be better ways to solve this, other than the way both sides are going about it.

    Is there a microscope powerful enough to actually see the progress that either side had made in a peaceful solution?


    your stance has been voiced and I respect your poistion.

    But on their current path of both sides, please share with me and us your predicition of where this will take the people of both groups?

    This group is doing this and that group is doing that doesn't seem to be resolving the issue. Bringing up all the dirt that can possibly be found doesn't seem to be bringing the matter any closer to a close.

    Imagine what both sides could be accomplishing if all the resources and energy they are putting into this "war" were redirected to something more constructive. So sad!!!!!
     
  7. és: thread starter macrumors 6502a

    és:

    #7
    If there is no justice, there will be no peace. First there must be justice and then peace can begin.

    Why would Israel bother? They just take what they want. Literally.
     
  8. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #8
    I certainly respect this sentiment - but does the world operate that way?

    Put in a more concrete hypothetical:

    If, despite these Israeli actions, Israel at some point in the future decides to make a concerted effort towards a solution with the Palestinians, would you support that w/o these current actions being held accountable?
     
  9. és: thread starter macrumors 6502a

    és:

    #9
    I support any efforts towards a solution. Unfortunately, Israel won't offer what Palestine wants.

    There is no viable solution unless Israel has a reason to play ball.
     
  10. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #10
    I recently read an article, sorry can't remember where, that stated that the Israeli army is being overtaken by religious fundamentalists. It used to pride itself on its secular nature but the moderate types are being drowned out.

    Any nation that allows religious fundamentalism to provide the basis for its actions is doomed to fail. Afghanistan is certainly the easiest example but I think the bush regime came as close as any American administration ever has in destroying the secular nature of the US military.
     
  11. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #11
    Not to muddle your point (which I think is probably correct), but it is my understanding that the US military tends to be quite religious (although not fundamentalist) - due in part to the general demographics of military recruitment and base geography.

    That said, in the case of any recent US and Israeli co-option of the military by more fundamentalist elements (to the degree it has happened), I would venture a guess that the problem is probably more political than military, and if military, probably at the lower rank levels (again due to the particulars of recruiting demographics).

    I freely admit this is only an educated guess.
     
  12. xUKHCx Administrator emeritus

    xUKHCx

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    #12
    I watched all three videos and while I pretty much knew what they were going to say I was still shocked and I am still shocked today.

    It has long gone past where an internal investigation is good enough. International investigations have to take place and proper action should be taken.
     
  13. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #13
    I don't have any figures to back my claims up, but the Colorado Air Force scandals along with the overtly religious multi-star general who claimed our presence in Iraq was equivalent to a crusade indicate that it's not just the recruits.

    In the case of Israel, when pro settler factions are allowed free reign in the military there can be only one outcome.

    The US needs to step up to the plate and admit that its overprotectiveness of Israel is, in part, responsible for the Israeli army's atrocious actions. Schoolyard bullies only rise to power if the powers that be ignore the bullies' actions. Unfortunately, Obama, with Rahm Emanuel as his filter of the world, has done nothing and will do nothing to substantially alter the US position.
     
  14. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #14
    Anyone know (or have a link) on what the average Israeli sentiment is on all this?

    While the US has perhaps been a huge enabler of Israel, it is also probably the only country that can, under the right circumstances, force both sides into serious action/discussion.

    After all, a US military presence along the Jordan, or better yet a NATO force, in the wake of Israeli withdrawl from say the West Bank, could be an important first step and please a lot of parties (Israelis get security, Palestinians get assistance, training, US/NATO gets legitimacy and strategic/humanitarian goals).

    Es, I'm sorry...I'm going off topic here...
     
  15. yojitani macrumors 68000

    yojitani

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    #15
    és: is this the article you meant to link to? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/23/israel-gaza-war-crimes-guardian

    The first link is to a thread that shows up blank on my browser.

    The problem is that they are not equal and Israel is and has been for more than 40 years more than happy to exploit their upper hand.
     
  16. és: thread starter macrumors 6502a

    és:

    #16
  17. toontra macrumors 6502

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    #17
    The US invaded Iraq partly because of Sadam's slaughter of political opponents and civilians (the other part was pure bull*****), yet it supports (and even funds) Israel to do the same.
     
  18. hotzenplotz macrumors regular

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    #18
    I am surprised that people are still shocked as to the human suffering in the Gaza strip. This is going on for decades, and we have barely scratched the surface of the extend of atrocities committed from both sides. In my view there is no difference between the Hamas and the IDF/Israeli government; as long as you intentionally try and kill civilians you're a terrorist in my book.

    The only difference in this case is that one side has a technological advantage over the other. One example: Hamas with their home-made rockets vs Israels UAW. I could not help myself but think that all these civilian casualties using drones was nothing more then a training exercise for new recruits.

    What a sad world we live in :(
     
  19. és: thread starter macrumors 6502a

    és:

    #19
    In my view there is a huge difference. The most fundamental of which is that one side is the oppressed and one side are the oppressors.
     
  20. BoyBach macrumors 68040

    BoyBach

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    #20

    Did you not read the linked article? It claims that the IDF used Palestinian children as human shields. If this is true, then the IDF are no better than Hamas.
     
  21. jonbravo77 macrumors 6502a

    jonbravo77

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    #21
    Is Israel doing some questionable things? Probably. Has Hamas and the Palestine nation and in fact pretty much the entire region wanted the Israeli's exterminated? Yes. This has been going on for a very very long time... I think Israel has reached that breaking point, judgment might be a bit clouded but they have done nothing more than what Hamas, Hizbullah, the PLO have done in the past and continue to do.

    But they are supposed to be a civilized democratic nation? Ya, but when does enough become enough. Besides we all know what happens to a civilized democratic nation becomes with the wrong leaders in charge. And if you don't know, just look at the US for the past 6 years... I love the country I live in, but the leaders in the last administration really screwed us....

    EDIT*** It's also very easy to have these feelings against Israel since the report seems to be skewed to one side. Not saying at all that these stories are not true, but when you read stories like this you tend to forget what the Palestines and Hamas have done to Israeli citizens..
     
  22. szark macrumors 68030

    szark

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    #22
    I've never agreed with our government's unwavering support of Israel, and I think that we need to stop helping their terrorist-style actions.
     
  23. arkitect macrumors 601

    arkitect

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    #23
    And you're just going to leave it at that?
    You've obviously (?) read the linked article so, please do feel free to give examples that justify the Israeli brutality…

    *holding my breath*

    Page 2. ;)

    Edit: Well it was Page 2… but I see some comments have been vapourised…
     
  24. Cromulent macrumors 603

    Cromulent

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    #24
    Nothing they have done comes close to this.
     
  25. jonbravo77 macrumors 6502a

    jonbravo77

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    #25
    1 thing I found was a chronology of terrorism against Israel.

    This is just from 2006-2008 Link

    Here is the rest that goes back further. Link

    I am not saying that what Israel is doing is in anyway better than what the PLO, Hamas, Hizbullah and anyone else in the region has been doing to Israel for many many years. But there are 2 sides to every story and that Guardian article seemed a bit skewed to one side.
     

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