Gun control reduces suicide

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Eraserhead, Jan 28, 2015.

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  1. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #1
    As everyone wanted a gun thread, it seems gun control reduces suicide.

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/02/1...-focus-turns-to-guns.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
     
  2. burgundyyears macrumors 6502

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    This only works if you interpret a gun as a disease agent the way some public health researchers do. I disagree. I don't doubt that suicidal individuals may seek out a gun for the act (especially if they want it to be successful), but talk about treating a symptom. It is worth noting that, culturally speaking, most of the countries that have pretty high suicide rates don't actually have that many guns. Guns don't spread a disease caused suicide. Public health researchers have long tried to analogize guns as an agent of a disease called crime too, and it's not really any less specious there.
     
  3. luvmymbpr macrumors regular

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    This opinion piece again? It's filled with he said she said. There are several quotes from people, including families of suicide victims, that say the availability of a gun wasn't the only contributing factor and it would have happened regardless. I really don't see how anyone can draw the conclusion of "gun control reducing suicide" from this article.

    The whole article is attempting to say that correlation implies causation. Complete false.
     
  4. DUCKofD3ATH Suspended

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    Is that so? Then why does Greenland have the highest suicide rate in the world yet they've got gun control?

    By the way, we're 30th globally in suicides.
     
  5. luvmymbpr macrumors regular

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    Completely agree. There is always an attempt to demonize guns like they somehow enable people to commit suicide or commit crimes. That is factually incorrect. It is the person behind the tool of choice. A bridge did not make someone commit suicide. A bat did not make someone kill another person. They are merely the tools used.

    ----------

    Breaking out numbers won't accomplish anything. He argues this topic purely on circumstantial evidence and opinions. He still can't tell me how more guns = more deaths when we have tripled the amount of guns in circulation over a period of time where all violent crime rates fell.
     
  6. .Andy macrumors 68030

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    This is not true. The research into guns and suicide has demonstrated them a means only. And the research shows that restricting means (guns) results in a reduction in successful suicide deaths.

    If you had a family member who was going through a mental health crisis and was suicidal you would absolutely keep them away from guns in the acute setting. To claim otherwise is a complete lie. It makes both common sense and is backed by research.

    http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/
     
  7. luvmymbpr macrumors regular

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    #7
    Successful suicides. What you're saying is that they have a better chance of surviving a suicide attempt by other means. Ok, but how do you address the fact they will try other means anyway? Shouldnt you be addressing the underlying causes of these suicidal tendencies rather than going after pointless gun control? There are 20,000 suicides every year by firearms. That's not even 0.01% of the population. I really don't think everyone needs more laws for that small portion of the population; especially when there's no guarantee it will do anything. Where there is a will there's a way, and plenty of people are successful every year killing themselves by other means.
     
  8. Eraserhead thread starter macrumors G4

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    #8
    Right so they try and kill themselves by another means, and then likely fail. Then you can treat it.
     
  9. luvmymbpr macrumors regular

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    I'm a huge fan of anything firearms related that Harvard does. It's so hilariously biased.

    Studies find that adolescent suicides by firearm tend to use their parents gun.

    Boy what a breakthrough discover there. I figured adolescents would go out and buy themselves a gun... oh wait they can't. Gun control would really help there. /sarcasm
     
  10. .Andy macrumors 68030

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    #10
    The choice of means is very important in suicide attempts. Not all are equal. Those means that are quick and painless (guns) result in higher suicide rates. This is because suicide is often a spur of the moment issue during a mental health crisis. Those that require pre-planning, pain, or higher chances of failure and disability are less common and lethal and less likely to be attempted. If pre-planning is required people often don't go through with it.

    This is all outlined in the links above you have been provided.
     
  11. luvmymbpr macrumors regular

    luvmymbpr

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    Or they just steal a gun, like the Harvard article says, or they succeed, or they try again.

    Again... less than 0.01%. We have way more dui incidents every year, and you never hear people demanding sweeping changes like breathalyzers in all new vehicles.

    ----------

    And how does gun control ensure that a gun won't be available to those who wish to commit suicide?
     
  12. burgundyyears macrumors 6502

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    Well then gun control needs to be defined more tightly. If you mean the specific case of taking steps to remove tools to self-harm from suicidal people, well, that's just kind of obvious. Gun control, when it's proposed in the abstract, is more commonly applied as removing access to guns generally and indiscriminately from all people.
     
  13. .Andy macrumors 68030

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    #13
    That Harvard page linked has further links to the primary research for you to read. You don't have to take the Harvard page at face value.
     
  14. Eraserhead thread starter macrumors G4

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    #14
    You don't have more DUI deaths.
     
  15. luvmymbpr macrumors regular

    luvmymbpr

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    Yep it's about 10,000 deaths a year with many more incidents of dui arrests not ending in fatalities.

    So you're good with 10,000 then?
     
  16. .Andy macrumors 68030

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    #16
    I have said nothing about gun control. It should be common sense to restrict gun access to people going through mental health crises.
     
  17. b0fh666 macrumors 6502a

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    #17
    whats the upside of this? taking away choice from people is good?
     
  18. luvmymbpr macrumors regular

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    #18
    The thread was started on the notion that gun control reduces suicides. If you're just making observations then that's fine.

    I also agree with taking away anything dangerous from someone having mental health issues.
     
  19. DonJudgeMe macrumors regular

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    #19
    Or, those states have more isolated living conditions and people get lonely. ...

    I'm just saying.

    Although suicide is a horrible option, and I would never condone taking anyone's life to solve a problem, I also respect the decision to do with your body what you like.

    Yeah, I'm one of THOSE liberals.:cool:

    ----------

    Suicide is tricky. Mental illnesses can increase suicidal thoughts, and I agree with taking guns from mentally ill. However, I do not believe that suicide is ALWAYS linked to mental illness. This is a grey area for me.
     
  20. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #20
    This a subject that has been gone over many many times on this forum.

    For me the forgotten aspect when looking at this subject is the woeful lack of good mental health care in the USA.
    Discharging patients and hope that they take their medication is not a good long term strategy.

    Firearms are just the tool used because of ease of access, they are not the cause of SUICIDE.
     
  21. Eraserhead thread starter macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #21
    There are many flaws with that, firstly if you did it on ignition what would happen if the car stalls? Secondly what would you do if someone has too many beers and sleeps in their car in the pub car park and wants the heater on to keep warm? Thirdly if you do it when the accelerator is pushed down how does it tell the car has just started and that you aren't pulling away from stopped?
     
  22. luvmymbpr macrumors regular

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    Almost every recent, large shooting was done by someone that had a huge list of mental health issues and indicators leading up to their crime spree. Does mental health get much attention? Nope. Everyone lets focus on guns!
     
  23. Eraserhead thread starter macrumors G4

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    #23
    So you'd be up for tax rises to fund better mental health care?
     
  24. DUCKofD3ATH Suspended

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    #24
    Japan has the world's 7th highest suicide rate and yet they've got universal health care.

    Reasons for suicide are complex, and no doubt many who kill themselves do so because of mental illness, but stats prove that our suicide rates aren't mainly due to poor mental health care or a lack of gun control.
     
  25. Eraserhead thread starter macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #25
    Japan's culture is broken, plus dark winters raise suicide rates.
     
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