Gun Restrictions/Control That Work (?)

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Mac'nCheese, Feb 7, 2015.

  1. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68040

    Mac'nCheese

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    #1
    Didn't want to derail the other thread on guns (yes, there actually is another one), but I was wondering if there are any gun restrictions/laws that are currently in place that gun right supporters agree with? Another poster had said that there were a bunch and I was curious what some of them were and if anyone who is a 2nd A supporter thinks any of them are useful and/or not unconstitutional.
     
  2. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    #2
    No problems with back ground checks . Back to class
     
  3. Mac'nCheese thread starter macrumors 68040

    Mac'nCheese

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    #3
    But can't someone get around that by going to a gun show and buying from another person instead of going to a gun store?

    Get back to me when you have no class.

    :D

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bJaz_S4deTM
     
  4. Technarchy, Feb 7, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2015

    Technarchy macrumors 604

    Technarchy

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    #4
    You've witnessed this personally? When is the last time you purchased a firearm at a gun show table?

    I've been to several gun shows, purchased a couple of weapons, not many, and have always had to fill out a 4473.

    The so-callled gun show loop hole is a myth. I challenge you to walk up to a booth and tell the vendor you want to buy a weapon under the table. That's a good way to get reported to the local PD or ATF office.
     
  5. Mac'nCheese thread starter macrumors 68040

    Mac'nCheese

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    #5
    I've never witnessed this and have never even been to a gun show.

    That's why I asked a question about it.
     
  6. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    #6
    Lunch. Techarchy covered it
     
  7. lowendlinux Contributor

    lowendlinux

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    #7
    The problem is the premise of this thread. The question should be how do we reduce violence? When you ask this question you loose the knee jerks on both sides.
     
  8. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    #8
    Better work opportunities
    Better educational system
    A criminal system that doesn't screw you for life
    And why not. A living wage:eek:
     
  9. bunnspecial macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

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    #9
    The so-called gun show loophole is actually just that the laws inside a gun show are exactly the same as they are outside of a gun show.

    Anywhere in the country, buying a weapon from an 01(retail business) or 02(pawnbroker) Federal Firearms Licensee(FFL) must fill out a form 4473 and pass either an NCIS check, the state equivalent if the state uses something other than NCIS, or show qualifying identification that allows the buyer to bypass the background check(some states' CCWs qualify-Kentucky runs a monthly NCIS check on all CCW holders).

    At least here in the Commonwealth, and in many other states, a private seller can sell a gun another resident of their same state without a background check provided that they do not have reason to believe that the person to whom they are selling is a prohibited person. The only caveat is that the seller must not be "engaged in the business of buying and selling firearms" but can only be selling items from their own collection.

    Both of the above are true both inside and outside the gun show.

    I have been a regular table holder at gun shows here in the Commonwealth for probably the last 5 years. I share a table with two other guys. We get the table primarily to BS with each other and our other friends at the show, sell some other junk(usually grips, holsters, ammo, reloading stuff, knives, coins, and watches) but one of us will occasionally put out a gun. Usually the guns we put out are interesting Smith and Wessons for show and tell, and not really priced to sell(although if someone pulled out the money they would find a new home).

    My observation is that probably only half of the sellers at gun shows are actually selling guns-most of the rest are selling holsters, beef jerky, scented candles, and whatever other random junk they have. Of the ones selling guns, probably 2/3 are FFLs. The private sellers selling guns tend to have a lot of high end/collectible long guns(old Winchester rifles, high grade English doubles) or collectible Smith and Wesson or Colt revolvers. Not a lot of thugs are going to gun shows to buy $3000 Colt Pythons or Single Action Army revolvers.
     
  10. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #10
    I have no problems with background checks. I have no problem with a short waiting period, 2-3 days max. I have no problems with convicted felons losing their right to own guns. I have no problems with denying people with certain mental illnesses temporarily losing their right to own guns.

    As with most restrictions of the 2nd Amendment and others, the devil is in the details.
     
  11. FX120 macrumors 65816

    FX120

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    #11
    I would support making an easy and free online portal so the seller in a private sale can quickly confirm the legal status of the buyer.
     
  12. Technarchy macrumors 604

    Technarchy

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    #12
    I would like to see a civilian NICS portal for private sales. In Utah typically we use military IDs and concealed and carry permits to determine if the person is of good character when doing a private sale.
     
  13. lostngone, Feb 8, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2015

    lostngone macrumors 65816

    lostngone

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    #13
    What purpose does a waiting period have?

    1. I already guns. So why should I have to wait?
    2. Crazy is Crazy, if a nut job can pass a background check they are still going to be crazy in two or three days.


    If someone needs a firearm for protection waiting 2 or 3 days could be a matter of life and death.

    ----------

    I can hardly wait to run background checks on everyone on my street!

    Now I will know who can't have a firearm or if I know they do have one I can make some quick blackmail cash.
     
  14. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #14
    If you already have guns, what does it matter if you wait?
     
  15. bunnspecial macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

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    #15
    Why should I have to make two trips to the store to buy a gun, especially if I already have one?

    I've been known to drive 3-4 hours one way(in state) to buy a gun. I'm a collector, and if the right item is there I'll do it. Within the framework of the current laws, I have to buy guns "over the counter." I either have to buy them from the store, or have them shipped to a store local to me(adding $50-75 to the cost of the gun, between overnight shipping and the fees most sellers tack on for a transfer).

    Let's say-hypothetically-I had $5K to blow on a Smith and Wesson Registered Magnum or Triple Lock Target(guns high my want list). Then, let's say that I found one at a store in Paducah, KY-about 4 hours each way from me. Why should I have to go down there to buy the gun, then make the same trip 3 days later to pick it up. I feel especially strongly about this since I have a history of responsible gun ownership, and am not going to make a trip like that to buy a gun that specific just so that I can go rob a convenient store or shoot someone I'm mad at.
     
  16. Mac'nCheese thread starter macrumors 68040

    Mac'nCheese

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    #16
    Are waiting periods always on a per gun basis? I mean, I can't pass a background check just once and then buy whatever I want, whenever. I have to go through a check for each purchase? Does it differ much by states, I would assume so.
     
  17. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 604

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    #17


    For those that oppose ever having a national registry, this is the result.

    With a national registry a federal system can be easily put into place, where you're given a card and as long as the card scan clears okay, then there is no need to wait. For those that are in violation of the law, the card can simply be voided or have a suspended status.

    With out a national registry, how else is there to tell what a person's background is regardless if they are already gun owners or not?

    Can't have things both ways.
     
  18. bunnspecial, Feb 8, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2015

    bunnspecial macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

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    #18
    There are 50 states, and 50 different sets of laws as it pertains to this.

    The only federal law is that for each and every purchase you must fill out a form 4473(which contains identifying information as well as information on the firearm or firearms being transferred-more than one firearm can be on one 4473). It also asks a series of questions to the prospective purchaser-the first is to ascertain that the person filling out the form is the actual purchaser of the firearm(this must be answered yes), while a series of questions ascertain if the purchaser falls into the "prohibited person" category(these must all be able to be honestly answered "no" for the sale to proceed). The full form is available for review online if you want to view it.

    Once the 4473 is completed, the dealer does a couple of different things depending on the specifics on the purchaser and the state.

    1. In most states, the seller will then send the biographical information along with information about the nature of the transaction(i.e. sale of handgun or long gun) to NICS(the national background check system). This is done either by calling in, or, increasingly more often is done electronically. The NICS check will come back either "proceed", "delay", or "deny." If the answer is proceed, the FFL is given a confirmation number which is recorded on the 4473, and the purchaser can take possession of the gun(barring any state laws to the contrary). If the answer is "deny", the sale can not proceed and in fact the prospective purchaser can even be arrested(although I know of few cases where this happens). Delays can get complicated-often they are simply due to a backlog in the system and are cleared(either to proceed or deny) in 10-15 minutes. At other times, they can take longer. Legally, if the status is still "delay" after 72 hours, the business can allow the purchaser to take possession, although this is very much a store-by-store policy.

    2. Some states have their own alternative to NICS-these work similarly to NICS.

    3. The BATFE recognizes the valid concealed carry licenses or firearm licenses of some states as being valid proof of the person not being prohibited from owning a firearm. In states where this is the case, the information from the license is simply recorded on the 4473 and the purchaser is allowed to take possession(again, barring a state-mandated waiting period).

    One last thing-the dealer is required to retain paper copies of the 4473s(which contain the serial number, make, and model of the gun transferred) for 20 years, at which point they can be destroyed. If the business closes before the 20 years are out, they are required to forward the 4473s to the BATFE, however the BATFE is-under federal law-not permitted to digitize or otherwise record the information on the forms. I'm told that the warehouse where they are stored looks something like the one in Raiders of the Lost Arc :)

    Records of NICS checks are supposed to be purged within 72 hours of a Proceed. They do not contain specific identifying information about the guns being transferred-just the general type(long gun or handgun). The only time the BATFE receives specific information on a firearm transfer is if the dealer fills out a form 3310, which is done if the same person purchases 2 or more handguns within a 5 day period.

    A couple of other final things:

    The BATFE has provided an avenue for collectors to acquire "curio and relic" licenses, designated as an (03) FFL. A C&R firearm is defined as being more than 50 years old, or of being of significant monetary or collectible value. There is an official list of C&R firearms, although anything older than 50 years old is automatically included. A sale from an 01 or 02 FFL to an 03(C&R) is handled just like any other transfer to a dealer-it is recorded in the dealer's bound book, but no 4473 needs to be filled out nor does an NICS check need to be performed. The 03 FFL then records the firearm in their bound book. It's worth mentioning, however, that many 01 and 02 FFLs refuse to deal with 03s, and instead require them to go through the normal 4473/NICS route.

    Second, all firearm transactions between an 01 or 02 FFL and a non-FFL must be carried out in person and "over the counter." If one wants to order a gun through the mail, they must have it shipped to an 01 or 02 FFL close to them and then follow the above outlined process to take possession of the gun. A person can buy a long gun out of state in person(provided that the gun is legal in that person's state of residence), while a person can only take possession of a handgun in their own state of residence.
     
  19. Technarchy macrumors 604

    Technarchy

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    #19
    Now that is a perfect post. I was typing up a response but you nailed it. It's so good it should be a sticky.
     
  20. lostngone macrumors 65816

    lostngone

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    #20
    We have this, it is called the National Instant Criminal Background Check System(NICS). No card or firearm registration needed.

    Again if NICS comes back clean why do I need to wait X more days?
     
  21. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 604

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    #21

    NICS is a joke. Good luck depending on states to report correctly to NICS.
     

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