Guns and Heathcare...

AP_piano295

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Mar 9, 2005
1,076
11
They are seperate issues.

I've recently endured about five seperate speeches from conservative "friends"/aquaintances that sound roughly like this.

"First they'll socialize medicine and the next thing you know they'll be at my door trying to take my guns."

Now the thing that drives me nuts about this is how un-connected these two issues are. I am probably as liberal as almost anyone can be about Heathcare. However I am not anti gun, I actually like guns and enjoy shooting. My anti gun feelings extend to wanting a ban on assault weapons and desiring improved screening of those who want to buy a gun (my sister goes to Virginia Tech...).

So I would like to get a count how many people in PRSI support Heathcare overhall and are generally pro gun ownership?
 

Zombie Acorn

macrumors 65816
Feb 2, 2009
1,301
9,062
Toronto, Ontario
They are seperate issues.

I've recently endured about five seperate speeches from conservative "friends"/aquaintances that sound roughly like this.

"First they'll socialize medicine and the next thing you know they'll be at my door trying to take my guns."

Now the thing that drives me nuts about this is how un-connected these two issues are. I am probably as liberal as almost anyone can be about Heathcare. However I am not anti gun, I actually like guns and enjoy shooting. My anti gun feelings extend to wanting a ban on assault weapons and desiring improved screening of those who want to buy a gun (my sister goes to Virginia Tech...).

So I would like to get a count how many people in PRSI support Heathcare overhall and are generally pro gun ownership?
I support healthcare overhaul and am pro-gun ownership. I don't support the current bill/law though as its unconstitutional to force a US citizen to buy private health insurance with no alternatives, especially when these companies are generally not allowed to compete over state lines.
 

eawmp1

macrumors 601
Feb 19, 2008
4,130
5
FL
1) Pro healthcare reform/universal healthcare
2) Okay with registered guns with ballistics information on file

But let's face it, this will not sway an ultraconservative, card-carrying NRA member. To them its all a slippery slope towards communism.
 

barkomatic

macrumors 601
Aug 8, 2008
4,027
1,798
Manhattan
I think issues become linked in people's heads because of how common party platforms are marketed. We're not allowed to have independent opinions, issue by issue but we must identify as "Democrat" or "Republican" or now, "Teaparty" -- and those identities come with a bundle of philosophies that everyone must adhere to. If you are pro-gun than that automatically means you are a Republican to many people. If you are pro-healthcare reform, you are a socialist Democrat. Since its assumed if you have one belief that has been marketed as part of a bundle for one party or the other -- than its assumed you adhere to all the beliefs of that party.

It's ridiculous and part of the problem of polarization we are currently experiencing in this country. Yes, I'm pro-healthcare reform and I don't have a problem with someone legally owning a firearm. Depending upon which opinion is asked first, that means I'm either a Democrat or Republican on a given day to the person who asked that opinion.
 

Hmac

macrumors 68020
May 30, 2007
2,128
2
Midwest USA
I am not a republican.

I support improved firearms education, enhanced background checks. I'm opposed to assault rifle restrictions and handgun bans if those other two issues are addressed.

I am in favor of health care reform, opposed to "universal health care" (whatever that is). I am opposed to the current health care bill and especially the method that was used to ram it through. I am not opposed to the Democratic Party in general, but I sincerely hope that this legislative boondoggle comes back to bite them in the ass bigtime.
 

jonbravo77

macrumors 6502a
Feb 20, 2008
999
23
Phoenix, AZ
I support healthcare overhaul and am pro-gun ownership. I don't support the current bill/law though as its unconstitutional to force a US citizen to buy private health insurance with no alternatives, especially when these companies are generally not allowed to compete over state lines.
But there is an alternative. Either buy private health insurance or buy into the insurance the government uses. I don't quite understand how this is unconstitutional. My curiosity is if they take the "force" buying private insurance out and people don't have to buy insurance, when those ppl get ill and have a big hospital bill who will they expect to pay for it? Goes right back to you and I paying for someone who doesn't want to buy health insurance in higher premiums. Nice little cycle..

I support the HCR and am pro-gun, however I don't particularly think that ppl should be able to buy fully automatic assault rifles for "protection".
 

Zombie Acorn

macrumors 65816
Feb 2, 2009
1,301
9,062
Toronto, Ontario
But there is an alternative. Either buy private health insurance or buy into the insurance the government uses. I don't quite understand how this is unconstitutional. My curiosity is if they take the "force" buying private insurance out and people don't have to buy insurance, when those ppl get ill and have a big hospital bill who will they expect to pay for it? Goes right back to you and I paying for someone who doesn't want to buy health insurance in higher premiums. Nice little cycle..

I support the HCR and am pro-gun, however I don't particularly think that ppl should be able to buy fully automatic assault rifles for "protection".
There is no public option, so I don't know what alternative you are talking about. Its going to still be corrupt private corps in bed with government. I don't particularly like the force buy system, especially when we are not allowing companies to compete over state lines. If we are going this route a single payer system would have been just fine.

The only concessions that the insurance companies had to make were policies that should have been adopted without a law being passed... okay guys hand us 40 million new customers and we promise we won't keep dropping people to die for pre-existing conditions.
 

mcrain

macrumors 68000
Feb 8, 2002
1,768
11
Illinois
There is no public option, so I don't know what alternative you are talking about.
It's a shame the Republicans didn't come up with that wonderful idea. Yes, you're right, we should have a public option or UHC. I wonder why the GOP didn't push for that... :rolleyes:
 

IntheNet

macrumors regular
Oct 6, 2009
190
0
So I would like to get a count how many people in PRSI support Heathcare overhall and are generally pro gun ownership?
If there is a clause in the Democrat Health Care tome that allows government paid guns can you let me know? I might be swayed on the legislation if it provides mandatory payment of or compensation for ownership... that's an angle I hadn't considered but thanks just the same for the idea...
 

AP_piano295

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Mar 9, 2005
1,076
11
If there is a clause in the Democrat Health Care tome that allows government paid guns can you let me know? I might be swayed on the legislation if it provides mandatory payment of or compensation for ownership... that's an angle I hadn't considered but thanks just the same for the idea...
...Ok
 

Zombie Acorn

macrumors 65816
Feb 2, 2009
1,301
9,062
Toronto, Ontario
It's a shame the Republicans didn't come up with that wonderful idea. Yes, you're right, we should have a public option or UHC. I wonder why the GOP didn't push for that... :rolleyes:
The democrats are the ones who bombed the public option, they have no republican votes regardless.
 

bobber205

macrumors 68020
Nov 15, 2005
2,182
0
Oregon
The democrats are the ones who bombed the public option, they have no republican votes regardless.
That's true. It's the Democrats fault we don't have a PO. Though it would have been nice of the other side hadn't been lying about what a PO meant for the last year but still...
 

mcrain

macrumors 68000
Feb 8, 2002
1,768
11
Illinois
The democrats are the ones who bombed the public option, they have no republican votes regardless.
Yes, the Democrats didn't have the votes or the balls to do what we ALL agree should have been done, but then again, it was the republicans who LIED ABOUT HEALTH CARE REFORM.

Who lied about death panels?
Who continues to lie about death panels? (Hannity yesterday)
Who lied about socialism?
Who lied about overthrow of Constitution?
Who lied about deem and pass?
Who lied about self executing rule (used by GOP)?
Who lied about affect on Medicare?
Who lied about EVERYTHING??

GOP? Ding ding ding...

Right wing media?

Ding ding ding
 

.Andy

macrumors 68030
Jul 18, 2004
2,946
583
The Mergui Archipelago
They are seperate issues.

I've recently endured about five seperate speeches from conservative "friends"/aquaintances that sound roughly like this.

"First they'll socialize medicine and the next thing you know they'll be at my door trying to take my guns."

Now the thing that drives me nuts about this is how un-connected these two issues are.
I don't think for the reasons of propaganda the two are distinct though. The issue of guns has long been mixed up with one of 'freedom'. The debate about guns has always been framed in terms of if one could rather than if one should. The same with healthcare. The opponents of it are absolutely desperate to frame the debate into it being "unconstitutional", "they didn't get to vote for it", "it was rammed down their throats" - i.e. that it's "forcing" americans into something against their will. In both cases it's superficial, emotive, and easy to argue without having to delve into more sophisticated discussion about the contents of the healthcare bill or the statistics and research into gun crime, suicide rates, and accidental firearm injury.
 

KingYaba

macrumors 68040
Aug 7, 2005
3,415
12
Up the irons
I don't think for the reasons of propaganda the two are distinct though. The issue of guns has long been mixed up with one of 'freedom'. The debate about guns has always been framed in terms of if one could rather than if one should. The same with healthcare. The opponents of it are absolutely desperate to frame the debate into it being "unconstitutional", "they didn't get to vote for it", "it was rammed down their throats" - i.e. that it's "forcing" americans into something against their will. In both cases it's superficial, emotive, and easy to argue without having to delve into more sophisticated discussion about the contents of the healthcare bill or the statistics and research into gun crime, suicide rates, and accidental firearm injury.
Well, it is about freedom especially when you have the words shall not be infringed in the constitution when talking about my right to personally keep and bear arms. I'm very interested to read the Chicago gun case opinion because this'll open the floodgates if state governments cannot have any regulation regarding firearm ownership and possession. Two states in this union explicitly prohibit you, a US citizen (not you personally ;) ), from carrying a gun on your person. Bearing arms if you will. Does that jell with words shall not be infringed in my second amendment? I think not. But maybe the Supreme Court will say the second amendment limits the fed's power to legislate the gun thing. So states can do as they please in their jurisdiction. Sounds like a state's rights sort of thing, don't it? I'm especially interested in reading Justice Scalia's opinion on this case considering he's always been the self-describing state's rights champion but I'll bet he personally and politically disagrees with firearms laws like Chicago's.
 

scottness

macrumors 65816
Mar 18, 2009
1,370
3
Room 101
I would like the option not to buy health insurance. From what I understand, I will be penalized for not buying. That, and I have no problem with guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens--and not felons.
 

Gelfin

macrumors 68020
Sep 18, 2001
2,166
4
Denver, CO
The problem isn't that health care reform is the first step to the gub'ment taking my guns, it's that the gub'ment is going to take away my God-given right to put a hole in a man by taking him away, fixing him up, and billing me for the patch job next April. I won't put up with no muslim libral taking away my Second Amendment guarantee that when I shoot a man, he stays shot.