Hagel Proposes Defense Budget cuts.

quagmire

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A scaled-back, modern U.S. military would cut the Army to its pre-World War II size and do away with the A-10 "Warthog" attack jet, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel will say Monday in proposing a new budget to reflect the end of America's longest war.


"After Iraq and Afghanistan, we are no longer sizing the military to conduct long and large stability operations," Hagel will say in announcing his 2015 Defense Department budget plan, according to advance text released by the Pentagon.


Downsizing due to modernization and budget constraints began under Hagel's predecessor, Robert Gates, and the proposal described Monday began a new phase of the change.


"As we end our combat mission in Afghanistan, this will be the first budget to fully reflect the transition DoD is making after 13 years of war - the longest conflict in our nation's history," Hagel says in the advance text.


The former Republican senator from Nebraska describes a military capable of fighting on one war front and maintaining effective defenses for a second while shifting to a more tactical capability.
http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2014/02/24/hagel-cuts-would-reshape-military-after-longest-war/?hpt=hp_t1

While I am all for getting the Defense Budget under control, I don't know if I agree with the way they are doing it per se. They are going to retire the A-10 which is still a very capable aircraft for close air support while still fully funding the POS F-35 that is massively over budget. Not to mention the cost of the Ford Class has skyrocketed to $12 billion and Zumwalt to $4 billion. And in testing there are questions if the Ford can even perform like the Navy said it would in development( whether the issues are design flaws or just bugs in the system, who knows).

And this is coming from a person who loves the Navy and loves the aircraft carrier, but the rising costs of these ships is ridiculous and the fact Congress doesn't bring in Lockhead, Northrop, and General Dynamics to tear them a new one over these issues is even more staggering.

Also, the Air Force should look into the F-15 Silent Eagle if they do not intend to order more Raptors.
 

jnpy!$4g3cwk

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http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2014/02/24/hagel-cuts-would-reshape-military-after-longest-war/?hpt=hp_t1

While I am all for getting the Defense Budget under control, I don't know if I agree with the way they are doing it per se. They are going to retire the A-10 which is still a very capable aircraft for close air support while still fully funding the POS F-35 that is massively over budget.
All Republicans in favor of increasing taxes to save the A-10 please step forward now.
 

quagmire

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All Republicans in favor of increasing taxes to save the A-10 please step forward now.
They wouldn't need to raise taxes if they just didn't blindly throw money at troubled programs. That $3.5 billion savings cited by Hagel by retiring the A-10 could be saved if they could get the cost of each Ford down to $8 billion( the Ford's initial cost), Zumwalt down to $1-2 billion, etc.

Be smarter with the money vs just throwing more at the problem.
 

noisycats

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http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2014/02/24/hagel-cuts-would-reshape-military-after-longest-war/?hpt=hp_t1

While I am all for getting the Defense Budget under control, I don't know if I agree with the way they are doing it per se. They are going to retire the A-10 which is still a very capable aircraft for close air support while still fully funding the POS F-35 that is massively over budget. Not to mention the cost of the Ford Class has skyrocketed to $12 billion and Zumwalt to $4 billion. And in testing there are questions if the Ford can even perform like the Navy said it would in development( whether the issues are design flaws or just bugs in the system, who knows).

And this is coming from a person who loves the Navy and loves the aircraft carrier, but the rising costs of these ships is ridiculous and the fact Congress doesn't bring in Lockhead, Northrop, and General Dynamics to tear them a new one over these issues is even more staggering.

Also, the Air Force should look into the F-15 Silent Eagle if they do not intend to order more Raptors.
Something that's been bugging me more and more lately…our disposable Air Force. We are still manufacturing upgraded versions of the f15, f16, and f18s. All seemingly from a by-gone era. Yet the 117, dead. The 22, gone. And all this money being poured into the 35. Which I'm betting will have a similar 10-15 year production span before attention and trillions are devoted to the next must-have fighter. And all the while, capable 15/16/18 upgrades will likely still be coming off the lines.

Something's not right here...
 

quagmire

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Something that's been bugging me more and more lately…our disposable Air Force. We are still manufacturing upgraded versions of the f15, f16, and f18s. All seemingly from a by-gone era. Yet the 117, dead. The 22, gone. And all this money being poured into the 35. Which I'm betting will have a similar 10-15 year production span before attention and trillions are devoted to the next must-have fighter. And all the while, capable 15/16/18 upgrades will likely still be coming off the lines.

Something's not right here...
Sad fact is the Eagle, Falcon, and Super Hornet( or at least the Eagle and Super Hornet) are better aircraft than the F-35 outside of not being stealthy( which the Silent Eagle fixes the F-15's issues, but right now is an int'l model only).
 

Peace

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Something that's been bugging me more and more lately…our disposable Air Force. We are still manufacturing upgraded versions of the f15, f16, and f18s. All seemingly from a by-gone era. Yet the 117, dead. The 22, gone. And all this money being poured into the 35. Which I'm betting will have a similar 10-15 year production span before attention and trillions are devoted to the next must-have fighter. And all the while, capable 15/16/18 upgrades will likely still be coming off the lines.

Something's not right here...
The F-35 will service the Air Force,Navy and Marines. With 3 different varieties designed for short take off,long take off and carrier based.

This is why some of the other aircraft are being EOL'd. The F-35 should replace all the old ones with newer stealth ones.
 

alent1234

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Something that's been bugging me more and more lately…our disposable Air Force. We are still manufacturing upgraded versions of the f15, f16, and f18s. All seemingly from a by-gone era. Yet the 117, dead. The 22, gone. And all this money being poured into the 35. Which I'm betting will have a similar 10-15 year production span before attention and trillions are devoted to the next must-have fighter. And all the while, capable 15/16/18 upgrades will likely still be coming off the lines.

Something's not right here...
f15 dates to the 60's
the f16/f18 to the 70's
in 10-15 years the f-35 will probably be due to hardware upgrades, not replacement.
 

quagmire

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The F-35 will service the Air Force,Navy and Marines. With 3 different varieties designed for short take off,long take off and carrier based.

This is why some of the other aircraft are being EOL'd. The F-35 should replace all the old ones with newer stealth ones.
Question is if the F-35 is superior to the planes it will be replacing. And I am not convinced that it is superior to the F-15 and F-18. Sure it is a stealth aircraft, but the F-35 is a compromise plane where the F-15 and F-18 have clear mission objectives. I could be convinced the Raptor is better than the Eagle, but not the Lightning.

Hell, the F-15 can fly on one wing....

 

Peace

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Question is if the F-35 is superior to the planes it will be replacing. And I am not convinced that it is superior to the F-15 and F-18. Sure it is a stealth aircraft, but the F-35 is a compromise plane where the F-15 and F-18 have clear mission objectives. I could be convinced the Raptor is better than the Eagle, but not the Lightning.

Hell, the F-15 can fly on one wing....

Image
While a lot of that is true the older aircraft do not have the ability to fly to a target undetected like the F-35. That in and of itself is a huge step up in technology and could decrease the number of aircraft shot down during a conflict.

That saves money.
 

Wild-Bill

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The F-35 will service the Air Force,Navy and Marines. With 3 different varieties designed for short take off,long take off and carrier based.

This is why some of the other aircraft are being EOL'd. The F-35 should replace all the old ones with newer stealth ones.
LOL. You mean the project that is already 70% over initial budget estimates, over a billion dollar cost overrun for the first 63 planes (392 billion estimate for 2,443 planes), with persistent nagging software problems?

Back in 2013, there was a RAND report posted by Bloomberg that stated the "inter service commonality" they were hoping to achieve to keep maintenance costs down is actually going to be MORE expensive than had they built separate aircraft for each of the services.
 

quagmire

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While a lot of that is true the older aircraft do not have the ability to fly to a target undetected like the F-35. That in and of itself is a huge step up in technology and could decrease the number of aircraft shot down during a conflict.

That saves money.
Boeing is developing the F-15E Silent Eagle for international sale.
 

Peace

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Silent Eagle is being developed for international sale.
That doesn't mean the other variations are too. There are different variations being made. For both the U.S. Military and international sales.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I support the Military-Industrial Complex. Money could be saved but not by discontinuing the F-35.
 

quagmire

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That doesn't mean the other variations are too. There are different variations being made. For both the U.S. Military and international sales.
You buy the Silent Eagle to replace the aging Eagle airframes.

Right now the Silent Eagle is being developed for international markets only in mind.
 

Peace

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You buy the Silent Eagle to replace the aging Eagle airframes.

Right now the Silent Eagle is being developed for international markets only in mind.
I don't understand. What is your point ? The U.S. Military has been making specific kinds of Military equipment for export for a long time. Which the Silent Eagle is designed for.
They aren't being made for the U.S. Military.

It's a profit thing and the stealth technology is older generation.
 

quagmire

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I don't understand. What is your point ? The U.S. Military has been making specific kinds of Military equipment for export for a long time.
That the US Air Force should be looking to buy the Silent Eagle as well instead of looking at the F-35 for its replacement( which the Raptor originally was the Eagle's replacement and was a fairly decent one at that).

The F-15 is a vastly superior air superiority fighter compared to the F-35 and once stealth is defeated, the F-35 loses its huge advantage over a normal Eagle.
 

Wild-Bill

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You know, Eisenhower warned the American people about the military-industrial complex. No one listened.

As far as the OP's comment about ripping these contractors a new one.... Heard about the LCS class of ships? The Littoral Combat Ship, shallow draft, easy to conduct shallow-water ops.... The thing is an abysmal failure and was deemed "not survivable" in combat.
 

quagmire

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You know, Eisenhower warned the American people about the military-industrial complex. No one listened.

As far as the OP's comment about ripping these contractors a new one.... Heard about the LCS class of ships? The Littoral Combat Ship, shallow draft, easy to conduct shallow-water ops.... The thing is an abysmal failure and was deemed "not survivable" in combat.
And Independence and Freedom were supposed to be prototypes in competition that was supposed to determine which design was better for mass production.

Nope, they decide to order both classes.....
 

Peace

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And Independence and Freedom were supposed to be prototypes in competition that was supposed to determine which design was better for mass production.

Nope, they decide to order both classes.....
What would you have them do ? Sell the current stealth technology to foreign countries ?
 

quagmire

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What would you have them do ? Sell the current stealth technology to foreign countries ?
Have two versions of the Silent Eagle. One for US consumption and the other for international. That is why the US Air Force needs to get in on it now while it is still in development.

That isn't a new concept. International models of the F-15, F-14, etc always lacked components, etc that the Air Force Eagles, Navy Tomcats, etc had.
 

noisycats

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f15 dates to the 60's
the f16/f18 to the 70's
in 10-15 years the f-35 will probably be due to hardware upgrades, not replacement.
Which makes my point all the more astounding. 40 year old planes, with constant life cycle improvements and upgrades, are amazingly capable and proven aircraft.

Recent history of the 117 and 22 suggest the 35 will not get upgrades, but simply mothballed after a small production run (comparatively speaking) as we pursue the next trillion dollar fighter.

----------

While a lot of that is true the older aircraft do not have the ability to fly to a target undetected like the F-35. That in and of itself is a huge step up in technology and could decrease the number of aircraft shot down during a conflict.

That saves money.
Only the number of our planes being shot down has not been much of a problem in recent conflicts. Even so, one 35 will buy quite a few of the upgraded older planes.

----------

What would you have them do ? Sell the current stealth technology to foreign countries ?
So what are you suggesting? When the military-industrial complex has a competition, there can be no winner lest the loser sell his offering to a foreign entity?
 
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Wild-Bill

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I'm certain the bulk of the cuts will first come from trimming the total force numbers down. That I agree with. Next, they are going to chip away at the pay and benefits of those who are left. That, I do NOT agree with. And then they are going to artificially limit disability benefits (going forward) for those who become disabled in the line of duty, whether it was combat-related or not. (**Not those already on disability retirement**).
 
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Peace

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I'm certain the bulk of the cuts will first come from trimming the total force numbers down. That I agree with. Next, they are going to chip away at the pay and benefits of those who are left. That, I do NOT agree with. And then they are going to artificially limit disability benefits for those who became disabled in the line of duty, whether it was combat-related or not.

If anyone doubts that last sentence, shoot me a PM. I have first-hand knowledge.
Shoot me a PM and tell me what I don't know.

Seriously.
 
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rdowns

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Whether or not you agree with the proposed cuts, it is insane that we have many politicians (mostly Rs but quite a few Ds) that want to increase defense spending. This on top of the increases due to 13 years of war. Insanity.
 

bruinsrme

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I'm certain the bulk of the cuts will first come from trimming the total force numbers down. That I agree with. Next, they are going to chip away at the pay and benefits of those who are left. That, I do NOT agree with. And then they are going to artificially limit disability benefits (going forward) for those who become disabled in the line of duty, whether it was combat-related or not. (**Not those already on disability retirement**).
History repeats itself.

The disability costs will be shifted to the VA. Disability rating for the services differ from that of the VA.

Benefits will be be cut. Military will be shifted to ACA.
While riding subs I was always amazed at what a civilian gets paid for a day at sea compared to the sailor. Both paid by the tax payer.