Hamas is now in charge!

Dont Hurt Me

macrumors 603
Original poster
Dec 21, 2002
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Yahooville S.C.
Well all news http://www.cnn.comare reporting that the Hamas have won the elections. I wonder how Israel is going to be dealing with those that are pledged to the destruction of Israel? So they have given up on one terror group (PLO) for another Hamas. I dont see much changing in that region of the world for a long long time.:(
 

Deepdale

macrumors 68000
May 4, 2005
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Dont Hurt Me said:
... So they have given up on one terror group (PLO) for another Hamas. I dont see much changing in that region of the world for a long long time.:(
It will be a bloody battleground for the forseeable future.
 

toontra

macrumors 6502
Feb 6, 2003
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Bush will no doubt be overjoyed to see democracy taking root in the middle east. This is, after all, how he justified the war (leaving aside WMD).

Or perhaps elections are only fair and democratic if they take place in countries you happen to be occupying at the time.
 

Dont Hurt Me

macrumors 603
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Dec 21, 2002
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Yahooville S.C.
It will be interesting to hear the administrations spin on this election, they were pooring $$$ into the other guys so i wonder how they will feel about this loss. Free elections are what we wanted and thats what we got. Fact is Muslims are the majority in this country just as in Iraq. People will vote for their religions. Theocracys are taking over the Mideast. At least Israel will know who its dealing with. I wonder how long till the next war breaks out?
 

iGary

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May 26, 2004
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Dont Hurt Me said:
It will be interesting to hear the administrations spin on this election, they were pooring $$$ into the other guys so i wonder how they will feel about this loss. Free elections are what we wanted and thats what we got. Fact is Muslims are the majority in this country just as in Iraq. People will vote for their religions. Theocracys are taking over the Mideast. At least Israel will know who its dealing with. I wonder how long till the next war breaks out?
Israel is no saint of a country, mind you. :rolleyes:
 

Dont Hurt Me

macrumors 603
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Dec 21, 2002
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Yahooville S.C.
iGary said:
Israel is no saint of a country, mind you. :rolleyes:
I never said they were but unlike Israel Hamas has stated its for the destruction of Israel. I wonder what would happen if Israel said they are for the destruction of Hamas? Thats the difference.
 

iGary

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May 26, 2004
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Dont Hurt Me said:
I never said they were but unlike Israel Hamas has stated its for the destruction of Israel. I wonder what would happen if Israel said they are for the destruction of Hamas? Thats the difference.
Well you are well aware that Israel and surrounding Palestinian lands were seized form the British by Zionist terrorists, right? I mean Begin blew up the King David Hotel for Christ's sake.

I told you to go get that PBS documentary on the history of Israel and Palestine. You'll have a whole new outlook on how innocent Israel is.
 

Dont Hurt Me

macrumors 603
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Dec 21, 2002
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There is bad history on both sides no doubt but this isnt 1960 this is 2006. Its past time for the two to stop the killing but i dont see a Hamas ran Palestine doing that. I predict we will be seeing more attacks, more response, etc. Either the 2 should just get it over and have the all out war or the two should say enough killing for all of the childrens sake. I would like to see the enough killing scenario but i dont think we will, war is easier then peace it seems in that part of the world.
 

iGary

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May 26, 2004
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Dont Hurt Me said:
There is bad history on both sides no doubt but this isnt 1960 this is 2006. Its past time for the two to stop the killing but i dont see a Hamas ran Palestine doing that. I predict we will be seeing more attacks, more response, etc. Either the 2 should just get it over and have the all out war or the two should say enough killing for all of the childrens sake. I would like to see the enough killing scenario but i think we will, war is easier then peace it seems in that part of the world.
Well considering that Israel blew up a Palestinian cleric in a wheelchair with C4 last year, I'd consider it current events.

I'm no Palestinian supporter, but Israel is no innocent in this process.
 

Dont Hurt Me

macrumors 603
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Dec 21, 2002
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Yahooville S.C.
iGary said:
Well considering that Israel blew up a Palestinian cleric in a wheelchair with C4 last year, I'd consider it current events.

I'm no Palestinian supporter, but Israel is no innocent in this process.
That Cleric wasnt what you would call a innocent, just more of we attack, they attack we attack they attack and here we are 50 years later with not much really changing. I forget the guys name but he was another terrorist,freedom fighter or any other label thats applied to these guys. Seems like seperation is the only answer. Like 2 little kids fighting in the back seat of your car.:rolleyes:
 

atszyman

macrumors 68020
Sep 16, 2003
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Jaffa Cake said:
Given that Hamas are considered to be a terrorist organisation by the US and EU, it's going to be interesting to see how they deal with them in government.
I would see it like most government dealings. You deal with the elected officials, not their political party. When was the last time Spain made a deal with the Republican party in the US? They are the elected officials and thus the current government. If they start making unreasonable demands and declare war then they will be dealt with accordingly.

I'm sure many countries are unhappy with the result but the same can be said of the 2004 elections in the US.

Yes it will make deals to keep Israel peaceful harder but the process is bound to be sporadic as the governments vary over time.
 

freeny

macrumors 68020
Sep 27, 2005
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Location: Location:
I predict Hamas will eventually split into 2 groups. One that governs and one that terrorizes. It will be a two faced government where the governing side will say it wants peace while all along supporting the terrorist side. Same $#1+ different name. nothing will change.
 

Metatron

macrumors 6502
Jul 2, 2002
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freeny said:
I predict Hamas will eventually split into 2 groups. One that governs and one that terrorizes. It will be a two faced government where the governing side will say it wants peace while all along supporting the terrorist side. Same $#1+ different name. nothing will change.
I completely agree. Good call.
 

floyde

macrumors 6502a
Apr 7, 2005
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Monterrey, México
Well Abbas is still somewhat in charge, perhaps he can still stir Hamas in a less radical direction? He did vow to disarm them. If not, then we can expect a lot more unilateralism from Israel.
 

nbs2

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Mar 31, 2004
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A geographical oddity
Few points.

I'm pretty sure Abbas wants to disarm, and said he would try, but I don't remember a guarantee (but I could easily be wrong).

The PLO is an organization, of which Fatah is part. They are the official representatives of the Palestinian cause to the outside world. I don't believe that Hamas has ever been part of the PLO. This is to be distinguished from the PA, which governs internal matters (including dealing with Israel). The problem is that Arafat was chair of the PLO and president of the PA. But, the PLO is relatively ancient while the PA was born I believe about 10 years ago.

Hamas will probably not split into two cooperative groups, but will have internal dissent. This doubles the opportunities for Hamas to effect positive change in Palestine. Not only can they continue to work to expel the Israelis, but (more importantly) they can work to improve the lives of those within the PA's governing jurisdiction.

I am curious as to why nobody believes that the elections could have a positive outcome. Do people think that the IRA chose to disarm because it felt like it? I think that the ability of SF to make changes (in a much less squalid and frustrated situation) to help its own gave it hope for an easier way than perpetual war.

Finally, I do believe that Israel is for the destruction of Hamas. It will take a much more protracted conflict for things to calm down. They eventually will, but really only if the moderates can hold on to power. I fear movement either way will provide an impetus for violence, either motivated by the thought that the fears fo the liberals can be preyed upon or a need to show the conservatives that they will not back down. I think that the various other organizations (aAMB, etc) will be more willing to fall in line with what a Hamas ruled government demands than what a foolish Fatah led group asked.
 

nbs2

macrumors 68030
Mar 31, 2004
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A geographical oddity
freeny said:
I respect and am encouraged by your pseudo optimism.
Not really optimism (pseudo or otherwise). I just think that the realities of governing a society, no matter how close to homogenous, forces change. Especially when you represent the faith of the masses. In the end, power is all that matters - not only internationally, but domestically. And here especially, as long as Hamas wants to have the upper hand in dealing with Israel, uneasy peace is in their best interest. One Hamas led attack and Israel is (self-)justified in saying "Ah ha! I knew they were a much of terrorists." Until that attack, Hamas is nothing more than a group of freedom fighters trying to free their homeland, who liberally interpreted Lincoln's belief that a democracy is a government of and by the people. They cannot be ignored.

I guess it is my own realist take on neo-realism and neo-liberalism.
 

trebblekicked

macrumors 6502a
Dec 30, 2002
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i'm pretty sure hamas split into political/charitable and terrorist/militant sects a while back. there was a controversy about an american citizen who made remarks praising hamas' charity work

this is not a good situation. hamas is basically political bankrupt- they won't find many supporters on the world stage. they'll compensate by ratcheting up the rhetoric and pressure on israel, and we all know how that'll turn out.

i bet this has the state department sweating bullets.

EDIT- i do like your take on it, though nbs2. here's hoping.
 

Dont Hurt Me

macrumors 603
Original poster
Dec 21, 2002
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Yahooville S.C.
freeny said:
I predict Hamas will eventually split into 2 groups. One that governs and one that terrorizes. It will be a two faced government where the governing side will say it wants peace while all along supporting the terrorist side. Same $#1+ different name. nothing will change.
Reminds of the old PLO:D new but same old story. I can say one good thing though and that was a peaceful election and the people excercising democracy! Cool! maybe there is hope in all of this. I feel a lot better about the people making the choices then i do when dictators or powermongers make choices. Arafat was a bum. didnt do anything to help his people in my view.
 

Sayhey

macrumors 68000
May 22, 2003
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San Francisco
I think this victory by Hamas is a very sad day for the Palestinian people. It represents failure on the part of the Palestinian's secular leadership who fell into corrupt ways. It also represents a victory for Sharon's path of bantustan's walled off from the world and controlled by Israeli military power. But most of all it represents a dark path of religious fundamentalism that a people who have endured too much violence and hatred must now be subjected to. If there is ever to be peace and renewal in Palestine, the reformers in the PLO, and by that I mean first and foremost Marwan Barghouti and what remains of the Palestinian left, had better seize power from Arafat's old cronies. When religious fundamentalists have come to represent the best hope for the future to the people on the street, something is terribly wrong.
 

mactastic

macrumors 68040
Apr 24, 2003
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Colly-fornia
nbs2 said:
The PLO is an organization, of which Fatah is part. They are the official representatives of the Palestinian cause to the outside world. I don't believe that Hamas has ever been part of the PLO.
Thank you. Hamas is NOT the PLO.

And as was mentioned by others, Hamas has long engaged in humanitarian work alongside it's armed actions. Thus the Palestinian ambivalence towards one of the only organizations that helps them.

And, also as mentioned, this election was about the deep corruption in the Fatah party -- the closest organization to the PLO because of Arafat's dual role.

This is the result of democracy in the Middle East. We've pissed off so many of it's residents, that when they're given the opportunity to vote, they vote for someone who says they're going to oppose US unilateralism.

So what does Bush do with a democratically-elected terrorist organization? He can ignore them, but they can push his buttons with suicide bombers that he won't be able to ignore. He can oppose them, but he'll be made out to be a hypocrite because he supports democracy until he doesn't like the results.

And what if (silly question, it's already happened) democracy in Iraq produces the same result? Extremist religious parties swept into office, friendly to Iran in multiple areas of the Middle East. Plenty of change all right, just not quite the kind Bush had in mind when he ordered that missile strike on Saddam's suspected hideout.