Has the global warming hysteria finally been put to bed?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by CorvusCamenarum, Dec 11, 2008.

  1. CorvusCamenarum macrumors 65816

    CorvusCamenarum

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    #1
    I'm a bit surprised this hasn't been picked up here yet.

    rest of story and other associated goodies here
     
  2. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #2
    Who knows? I would be extremely wary at this point. People have been doing a lot to cut down on emissions already. I also don't see how melting polar caps is going to help their position much either.
     
  3. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #3
    I'm sure it will still ask for a glass of water and a bedtime story.

    One thing that strikes me as odd is the comparison between the number of dissenting scientists and the number who authored the paper. Wouldn't it be more accurate to compare the number of dissenting scientists with the number who are affirming such a paper?

    Also, the tone of this web-page seems incredibly unprofessional. For a Senate page to the Committee on Environment & Public Works I'd expect something more even-handed and not simply advocating a particular side. Maybe I haven't worked through enough of these pages, but this bothers me.
     
  4. yojitani macrumors 68000

    yojitani

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    #4
    There's nothing wrong with them expressing their opinions - which is all that I see, I don't find anything yet with a strong counter-argument. The problem is when their opinion is politicized to favor industrialization. Not being a scientist I take a kind of pascalian wager approach: whatever is happening to the atmosphere, it surely can't be bad to reduce emissions while it could be bad not to.

    @hulugu: it's the minority page.
     
  5. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #5
    Exactly. This is one of those situations where it is far wiser to err on the side of caution.

    Anyone ever ask yourself this question? How many people did you know with asthma 30 years ago as opposed to now? It seems that almost half the people I know these days have asthma. No one I knew had it 30 years ago. It was much more rare. Are there any studies regarding pollution and asthma?
     
  6. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #6
    I think there are a host of net-benefits to reducing emissions and I agree, the opposition seems determined to create false choices. Industry can and will evolve as conditions demand and that includes CO2 (and other emission) reductions.



    I see that now.
     
  7. CorvusCamenarum thread starter macrumors 65816

    CorvusCamenarum

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    #7
    Is it really any better when the other prevailing opinion is politicized to favor more government intervention and inevitably higher taxes?
     
  8. yojitani macrumors 68000

    yojitani

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    #8
    Well, when it comes to balancing a destroyed environment, health problems, loss of land, vs higer taxes and government intervention the choice doesn't seem that hard. Of course, both sides are politicized. Only in a (delusional) utopia is science not political though.
     
  9. Sun Baked macrumors G5

    Sun Baked

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    #9
    I like the ones which say that it isn't global warming, but signs the poles getting ready to shift again in 2012 -- reserve your space in the alien bunker or spaceship.
     
  10. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #10
    What assumption are you positing here, that those arguing that climate change exists

    1) as a matter of principle strongly desired more government intervention and higher taxes
    2) decided that in order to increase government intervention and raise taxes, they would need a plausible excuse to do so
    3) invented the hoax of climate change
    4) bribed, threatened, connived, or otherwise convince the vast majority of the world scientific community to propagate this hoax along with other paid surrogates in a grand conspiracy of big-government, high-tax lovers.
     
  11. Anuba macrumors 68040

    Anuba

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    #11
    I don't know, but there are studies that link the rise in asthma to pertussis vaccination: http://www.vaccines.net/Asthma/allergie.htm

    There are other similar studies that link various allergies to vaccination against this and that. It seems that in an effort to vaccinate the hell out of children to keep them safe from everything from measles to chicken pox, we've created a generation of people who have no natural resistance to anything.
     
  12. Aea macrumors 6502a

    Aea

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    #12
    As much as I dislike his brazen assessment, I don't think putting words into his mouth will help your case. I think that it's inevitable that some issues will require big government intervention. But on a side note I hate this whole idea of "OH NO, BIG GOVERNMENT!" Because right now it's absurd, we have big government all around us, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. We can't just follow the ideologies of "no big government" nor can we follow the ideologies of "big government," we will have to find the golden mean. There are some issues that require a large government commitment; this isn't about some liberal fantasy of "saving the environment," the environment is in more ways then one bent over and has been for the past hundred years. The discussion is about stabilizing the environment so that we don't become the victims of our own mess a few decades down the line.

    I respect the need to preserve industry, but I think we need to start focusing on short term profits and looking at long term, inexpensive solutions. The sooner we start the less it will cost. Unless of course we as humanity like creating catastrophes and then asking "how could this have happened," before blaming the political opposition for all the world's problems.
     
  13. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #13
    You'll note that all the references on that page are well over a decade old and are small studies. There are far more modern and sophisticated studies with greatly increased numbers of participants that do not show a correlation. As it stands we do not know why there has been an increase in asthma in developed countries. If it were as simple correlation as between a vaccine and asthma the epidemiologists would have picked it off easily. If a correlation exists (no evidence) it is likely extremely weak and would not account for the increases in asthma we have seen.

    Some more up to date articles;
    If you're not familiar you can search the scientific literature free yourself at Pubmed. It's a simple way to double-check the claims made by third party websites. Alternatively there is always google scholar.

    No. Vaccination by its very definition increases your bodies natural resistance. We're also not "vaccinating the hell out of" anyone. Vaccination is a very precise, continuously researched, and extremely highly monitored science. All vaccination recommendations are first and foremost driven by caution. I wouldn't take any stock at all in what you read at vaccines.net. There are far better sources including your doctor, the CDC, and the medical literature.
     
  14. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #14
    I agree. I'm vaccinated against just about everything, including meningitis and hepatitis A and B. I wish I had been able to get vaccinated against shingles, but since I had it recently, no go. :(
     
  15. freeny macrumors 68020

    freeny

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    #15
    I personally know at least 9 people that are opposed to the content of the Kinsey Reports which was written by 1 person.

    So It must be wrong :rolleyes:
     
  16. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #16
    Post-herpetic neuralgia is awful Lee :(. I've seen patients completely incapacitated :(. It's a good example of vaccine and scientific research however - we'll have to wait and see how the new generation chicken pox and shingle vaccines work in the long term. Just like climate change. It's the long term trends that matter.
     
  17. CalBoy macrumors 604

    CalBoy

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    #17
    I thought we had settled this issue already? No? Fine, then I'll argue from the skeptics point of view:

    Imagine that man-made climate change is just hype. It's all caused by the changes in solar output, shifting winds, and other factors over which man has no influence. Fine.

    Knowing that, imagine the consequences. Oceans rise, deserts expand, and a large percentage of the world's fresh water (in the form of ice) is lost to the salty depth of the sea. This has the ability to drastically alter our ability to survive on the planet, let alone the ability of innocent species to survive.

    Now imagine that a series of steps can be taken to slow down this effect, and possibly even limit it. While taking these steps, your economy is also less reliant on fuels that come from oppressive regimes, your population produces less trash (which lowers the cost of putting that trash somewhere), the air is cleaner (nice for the scenery at least), and people spend less time in traffic (better for everyone, I think).

    The question is, why wouldn't you do this? It seems like a no-brainer.

    Unless of course you are an oil/coal company with plenty to lose.
     
  18. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #18
    Yes, I have PHN. I guess it takes about a year to get over. I got shingles in July and the pain and tingling is still going on, though not nearly as bad as it was. My cousin got shingles right before his wedding last summer. He said it takes about a year.
     
  19. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #19
    exactly i don't get it either ...
     
  20. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #20
    Hey, as long as there are at least a handful of scientists who claim that global warming is real and is man-made, this issue isn't settled.

    I mean, we've had years of global-warming deniers claiming that a relative few dissenting scientists was proof that the issue was open for debate, and that no policy changes should be made.

    Yet now the claim is that because (supposedly) more scientists are claiming that global warming needs to be "put to bed" than are claiming it's a real and human-caused phenomenon, that we need to call the issue closed.

    Interesting logic, that...
     
  21. Demosthenes X macrumors 68000

    Demosthenes X

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    #21
    I don't care about "dissenting opinions" particularly. How many of those 650 have published peer-reviewed papers in scientific journals? Opinion is nothing without evidence, and so far I've got to say the evidence I've seen has been in favour of climate change.
     
  22. aethelbert macrumors 601

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    #22
    If it has been put to bed, then I guess that we'll all have to brace ourselves for the oncoming movements to stop global cooling. Then, repeat the cycle.
     
  23. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #23
    You said it perfectly. Lists like these are nothing more than a cynical attempt to obfuscate the science in the eyes of the public. And unfortunately it works. Like lists of "scientists" that reject evolution or lists of "scientists" that don't think HIV causes AIDS or lists of "scientists" that think vaccination causes autism. It's a appeal to authority in the battle for public opinion and political power, not science. They are as free to anyone to put forward data or logical interpretations of the data for peer review. Scientific advancement is that last motivation of those joining these lists and those creating these lists.
     
  24. mkrishnan Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #24
    I think it's generally well accepted that environmental exposure to ambient pollution increases the base rate of asthma (but not quite to the extent that it seemed to Lee, at least not in the US). Other factors also play a role, such as obesity.

    What's not agreed on as well or as well understood is the extent to which environmental triggers can cause a person with a relatively low genetic risk for asthma to develop it and maintain it even if the triggers are removed, vs. the extent to which it just increases the number of genetically predisposed individuals who actually express asthma.

    With respect to pollution, though, I think the issue of the quality of the global warming proof honestly is not that important. There are all kinds of understood consequences of pollution already, not to mention those which are not well understood (including, perhaps, climatalogical changes). The bottom line is that, were we to get closer to a zero impact policy in terms of human changes to the atmosphere, it would certainly do us no harm and most likely would do us some good.

    Arguing against global warming is just a means to skirt the core issue that we're introducing poorly understood changes to the atmosphere and that's a risky game to be playing.
     
  25. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #25
    Interesting. It seems there are quite a few causes.
     

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