Has Ukraine signed its deathwish?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by G51989, Aug 12, 2014.

  1. G51989 macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #1
    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/0...-to-ukraine-as-nato-secretary-general-issues/


    I think Ukraine just signed its death wish.

    Why?

    I think Ukraine made a mistake here, the Humanitarian situation in Ukraine is getting worse, quickly. And I think at the end of the summer, Russia is going to invade Ukraine under the pretense of stopping human suffering.

    The sad part is, I think Russia is going to do this.

    The other part is.

    Who can stop them? I don't think anyone can.

    Opinions? I think Ukraine signed its death warrant, they won't last a week in a war with Russia.
     
  2. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #2
    No. I don't think so.

    I think Ukraine quite reasonably refused to let the Russian trucks in. The evidence that there is actually a bona fide humanitarian crisis is all but non-existent. And in this day of YouTube videos and smartphone cameras, its not quite so simple for criminals like Vladimir Putin to pull off an invasion as anything other than what it is.

    Ukraine has done quite well in rallying its citizens and international support. They've accepted difficult losses in aircraft and troops. And, in marked contrast to what has been happening in Iraq, the Ukrainian military has shown remarkable cohesion and ability to carry out operations.

    It is certainly possible that Russia may try an invasion of Ukraine. But doing so would essentially sign the death warrant for Russia remaining part of the 21st century global economic system. And I don't think the kleptocrats propping up Putin really want that.
     
  3. G51989 thread starter macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #3
    I would like to agree, but I can't.


    I personally don't view Putin as a Criminal anymore than I view Bush as a criminal. So I feel its hard for the US to say anything here.

    Lets be honest, the current Government in Ukraine was installed by the west to further isolate Russia and kill as many pro Russians as possible.

    With Western money. I feel like Ukraine would turn into another Israel, a welfare state. Bad idea.

    I don't think so, huge portions of China, and Europe are dependent on Russia to fuel their cars and trucks so they have food to eat, and fuel to keep their homes warm.

    As someone who has lived in Europe for some time and even back in the day ( France ), Ukrainians are not considered equal in Europe, and Europeans can't give a damn. I doubt their leader will either.
     
  4. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #4
    Source that the West installed the current regime in Ukraine.

    And actually we don't need Russian gas anymore. Thanks to fracking we can get gas from the United States. Plus the Russians need the gas money.
     
  5. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #5
    These two articles might shed some fresh air.


    Since November it was the US and NATO forces in the form of a US State Department cover that launched an all out assault on the democratically elected Ukraine President Viktor Yanukovych and his government.

    That now infamous statement made by profanity-carping Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland obscured what otherwise was a transparently intended plan for the coup that was attained in February when armed US backed demonstrators and mercenaries began shooting and killing dozens of Ukrainian citizens in its capitol Kiev that then drove the Ukraine President fleeing his country to seek refuge in Moscow. While the Putin and Yanukovych governments are clearly not saints, the US government that carries on the charade of being so exceptionally virtuous and benevolent is even more clearly anything but.

    What historically used to be the not so covert actions of the CIA and joint CIA-military operations throughout the world assassinating and triggering countless government overthrows and regime changes has undergone a not so hidden transformational shift to a covertly led, increasing US State Department role that funds and relies on Non-Government Organizations (NGO’s) with humanitarian window fronts to do its dirty work, craftily distancing and further obscuring any and all accountability and culpability in the growing destabilization of nations around the globe.

    This shadowy transformation of US foreign policy has mirrored the development in recent decades of a slithering shadow elite that has formed a loose and informal neocon network of various linked organizations such as think tanks, NGO’s, private corporate sponsors and lobbyists acting as no bid contractors, university research grants, and various intertwined government and mainstream media organizations all designed to seal the cloak of secrecy and deception that permit the oligarchic global cabal to tighten its control, effectively conceal both its overt and covert misdeeds along with its enormous money laundering scam operation from all public scrutiny and accountability.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-tr...nipulation-and-the-resurging-cold-war/5372408


    This link comes with videos.(Link bottom of page)

    The European and American public are being systematically lied to about the Ukraine crisis.
    In this video we're going to provide you with compelling evidence that the crimes against humanity committed in Kiev earlier this year were in fact committed by the new coalition government and that officials in the E.U. and the United States knew full well who committed these crimes and that they are protecting and financially supporting the real criminals.

    On February 20th of 2013 the world was shocked by video footage of snipers firing on protesters in Kiev Ukraine. Twenty one people were murdered, and it was widely assumed that President Victor Yanukovich and his supporters were behind the attacks. However a phone conversation between EU foreign policy chief Cathy Ashton and Estonia's foreign minister Urmas Paet leaked to the public on March 5th reveals that the snipers in were actually from the new coalition government, and that Western diplomats knew this and covered it up.

    The short version of the leaked call:

    Urmas Paet: "All the evidence shows that the people who were killed by snipers from both sides, among police men and people in the street, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides."
    Cathy Ashton: "Well that's, yeah..."
    Urmas Paet: "And she also showed me some photos and she said that has medical doctor, she can say that it is the same handwriting..."
    Cathy Ashton: "Yeah..."
    Urmas Paet: "Same type of bullets... and it's really disturbing that now the new coalition, that they don't want to investigate what exactly happened. So that there is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition."

    The long version of the leaked call:

    For some reason the U.S. media didn't think that little detail was worth covering.

    Related: Russia Rapidly Consolidates its Position in Crimea - Ignores Obama's Toothless "Sanctions"
    But wait… I thought the opposition were peaceful activists who just wanted a chance to join the European Union.

    Well yeah, that's the official narrative that the U.S. media outlets are peddling, but real story is much more ominous. It turns out that the most powerful and influential contingent in the opposition is a coalition of literal fascists and Neo-Nazis, and they aren't peaceful. In fact they are extremely brutal.




    Related: The Lines of Economic Warfare Are Being Drawn & The U.S. Is Not Going to Win
    The most prominent among these groups is an organization called Svoboda. The Svoboda party which traces its roots to the Ukrainian partisan army of World War II, was loosely allied with Nazi Germany. Until 2004, Svoboda had been called the Social-Nationalist Party, a deliberate reference to the National Socialism of the Nazis.

    We're not throwing the term Neo-Nazi around as an empty slur here. The leader of Svoboda, Oleh Tyahnybok, has openly targeted Jews and ethnic Russians in Ukraine for many years. In 2004 he was kicked out of Viktor Yushenko's government for a speech calling for Ukrainians to fight against a "Muscovite-Jewish mafia", and in 2005 he signed his name to an open letter to the leadership of Ukraine entitled "Stop the Criminal Activities of Organised Jewry".

    Related: Russia warns that it will Intervene in Eastern Ukraine - Washington Promises to 'Support' Kiev
    And none of this was a secret. The BBC was already reporting on the danger that Svoboda's rise posed back in 2012, and the EU passed a resolution that same year condemning Svoboda, as "racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic". Yet somehow the U.S. government thought it was appropriate to back these extremists.

    This is a picture of Victoria Nuland from the U.S. State Department meeting with Oleh Tyahnybok in February, and this is a picture of Senator John McCain sharing a stage with Tyahnybok in December.

    Related: Russia and China Announce Joint Naval Drills as NATO Declares Russia an Enemy
    Why would the U.S. government work with Neo-Nazis?

    Because they thought they could control the situation. They thought they could install their puppets behind the scenes and manipulate the situation in their favor. This isn't a theory. That same Victoria Nulland who met with Svoboda in February was caught in another leaked phone call discussing who would they would put in power.


    Related: The Odessa Massacre - What REALLY Happened
    The mainstream media tried to draw your attention away from the important part of this conversation by focusing on the fact that she used a cuss word when referring to the E.U.
    The U.S. government thought they could control this beast. But they were wrong. Svoboda and the Right Sektor are not toys to be played with. These groups are armed, they're forceful, and they view this crisis as an opportunity to reshape Ukraine in their own image.

    This video shows a prominent leader from the Right Sektor, Alexander Muzychko, brandishing an Ak-47 in parliament letting them know who is in charge.



    Related: Odessa Massacre - Evidence The Mainstream Media Won't Show You [WARNING: Disturbing Footage]
    This is the same Alexander Muzychko who publicly vowed to fight "against Jews communists, and Russian scum" for as long as he lives.


    Apparently the U.S. government has been a little slow to catch on to the fact that their hand has been exposed. In March a senior U.S. official told Reuters that "Since entering the Ukrainian Parliament in October 2012, the Svoboda leadership has been working to take their party in a more moderate direction and to become a modern, European mainstream political party, The leadership has been much more vigilant about expelling or otherwise punishing individual members who engage in xenophobic behavior or rhetoric."

    Related: The Only Thing More Shameful than the Shelling of Eastern Ukraine is the Silence From the Left
    So it's ok to use known Neo-Nazi groups to topple a government as long as their leaders keep their people from saying anything stupid in front of cameras for a few months? The reality of the matter is that as ridiculous as this assertion makes Washington look, they are trapped. They can't deny that Svoboda and the Right Sektor are running the coalition government when Svoboda holds five senior posts including the deputy prime minister position and the Right Sektor's Dmytro Yarosh is now the country's Deputy Secretary of National Security.

    But what about that dramatic video "I am a Ukrainian" that went viral as this crisis was unfolding. It was so compelling, so heart wrenching. Yeah, but who made it? Did you notice the link in the description? Awhispertoaroar... who are these people? Oh look, a link in the description. Let's click it. They have a website and a behind the scenes section. Oh it list the film makers. Who's this here? Larry Diamond, inspiration and executive producer. He's also a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and the National Endowment for Democracy and an advisor for the U.S. State Department. You know the funny thing about the National Endowment for Regime Change Democracy is that even though they call themselves an NGO they get virtually all of it's money from the U.S. federal government. You can verify this by downloading their annual financial disclosures. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the NED has been pouring massive amounts of money into Ukraine to "strengthen democracy and civil society"?

    Related: Wikileak Cables: Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko in Washington's Pocket Since 2006
    That sound nice doesn't it? Democracy... civil society. Of course by now you've realized that when they talk about spreading democracy what they really mean is regime change, and they are willing to work with the most despicable elements when it's expedient.

    It's exactly the same game they played in Syria. The U.S. government funded known extremists, literal terrorist organizations who have been documented massacring whole towns. They gave them money, they gave them weapons, and even after those extremists used sarin gas on thousands of civilians and got caught by the U.N., Washington still covered for them. Even to this day they are still funding those murderers, they are still training them, and they are still sending them weapons. There's a word for this kind of activity: state backed terrorism.

    Related: Exposed - U.S. Diplomat Behind Artillery Satellite Images was Involved in the Toppling of Yanukovich
    But the situation in Ukraine didn't unfold as planned. The parliament of Crimea, in the South of Ukraine voted to secede, and they are putting the decision up for a public referendum. The U.S. claims that this referendum is "unconstitutional" and says they won't recognize Crimea's decision as legitimate regardless of the outcome. So a foreign backed Neo-Nazi coup is constitutional, but a declaration of independence placed to a general vote is not? Seriously? That's the best you guys can do? Who writes these scripts?

    Take a step back and look at the pattern.

    Related: China Warns West that Sanctions on Russia Could Spiral into Chaos - U.S. & E.U. Indicate Sanctions to Begin Monday
    The real stakes of this drama are much bigger than Ukraine or Syria and these are not random and isolated events. We are witnessing the final stages of a geopolitical chess game that is designed to end in war. But in order to succeed they need to convince you, the public, that they didn't see this coming. They need you to believe that the other side was the aggressor. They are counting on you not paying attention to the fact that Obama signed an order targeting Russia with sanctions this past week and revoking the visas of a number of Russian diplomats. They are counting on you not noticing that Russia had warned that such a move would result in Russia dropping the dollar and encouraging others to do so as well. They're counting on you being too naive to realize that economic warfare invites physical warfare. They think you're too stupid to connect the dots.


    http://scgnews.com/the-ukraine-crisis-what-youre-not-being-told
     
  6. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #6
    The first source seems like a legitimate organisation, although it does have a clear slant on things that might, or might not, reflect reality. The second source seems to be a blogger. Both sources make unsubstantiated claims. In essence, to form your opinion, you have used others' opinions and suspicions. They might be right, but they might be wrong.

    I'd like to see any evidence of US covert budgets aimed at regime change in the Ukraine before coming to any conclusion. A successful operation like that would leak quickly, just as the covert operation against the USSR in Afghanistan and also the support the West gave to anti-communist organisations in the Eastern Bloc before the fall of the Soviet Union were leaked. So far, all the evidence does indicate that the West was interested in trade with Ukraine, but that is hardly a conspiracy.

    It seems a little unparsimonious to me to believe in some grand Western conspiracy, when Russia actually took by force land from Ukraine. Isn't it a little more likely that Putin is using the Ukraine to stoke up his popularity at home?
     
  7. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502

    Bug-Creator

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    #7
    @Happybunny

    Even if I could accept all that as true without 280 white trucks filled with salt....


    It all started when the pro-Russia president Yanukovych wanted to sign a trade deal with the EU. Putin didn't like that and humilated Yanukovych by outing him as his sock-puppet when he called him back.

    Offcourse that didn't go to well with the population in the west and center of Ukraine who wanted to move towards the EU eversince the early 90s.
    All one can accuse the west here is that the tried to use that opening, but in the it's all Putin failing to stay invisible while running his sock-puppet.
     
  8. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #8
    That might all be true, but the picture that is pushed in the western media is that the EU and USA are whiter than white.

    The truth is probably some where in the middle.

    I always get nervous when the US are involved in anything, they always manage to turn anything/anywhere it into a WAR, but this time the other side really does have nuclear weapons.
     
  9. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #9
    Most of the western press accounts about Ukraine are propaganda BS. While Paul Craig Roberts' commentaries are overly emotional in many ways (IMO), his alleged facts match other sources. Another commentator I respect is Pepe Escobar of Asia Times.

    The Nuland telecom regarding our $5 billion expenditure to undermine the Ukraine government and install "Yat" is related in many sources.

    The present Ukraine regime is neo-Nazi, per their own press releases and videos. They are using artillery, mortars and rockets on civilian targets, which is a war-crime per Nuremberg. They've called for the deaths of Russian-speakers in eastern Ukraine, and death to Jews.

    Our sanctions and those of the EU are blowing back. They are accelerating the demise of the US$ as the world reserve currency. Side effects could include its demise as the Petro Dollar, which would stick a fork in our economy.

    The rest of the world is playing chess. Our fearless leaders are struggling with the rudiments of tic-tac-toe.
     
  10. lannister80 macrumors 6502

    lannister80

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    #10
    Got a citation for, like, ANY of that?
     
  11. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #11
    Here is a sort of "back-grounder":

    http://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukraine_partner/

    About civilian targets:

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/08/13/4286901/rebel-held-ukraine-city-hit-by.html

    There are hundreds more "out there".

    Blowback: http://www.caseyresearch.com/cdd/us-sanctions-on-russia-are-already-backfiring-on-americans

    Also articles at Zero Hedge .com.

    The Russian reprisals are hitting the EU harder than our sanctions are hitting Russia. EU industrial leaders are speaking of reductions in sales around 15% to 20%.
     
  12. Macky-Mac, Aug 13, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2014

    Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #12
    it seems that turned out to not actually be true......Dr Olga Bohomolets who supposedly told those things to Paet denied it; and Paet described the stories as having been rumors, and not as your link misrepresents them, not as factual information known to be true

    Urmas Paet Did Not Confirm That Snipers Were Hired by Leaders of Maidan

    it appears your claim is a misrepresentation, propaganda, that actually started with Russian sources trying to discredit the opposition.

    Since there's currently a PRSI thread about whether youtube is a credible source, it's worth noting that the video was first posted on youtube;

    And then it's contents were misrepresented by RT and various Russian politicians.

    In any event, from another source, the Estonian view as reported

    that wasn't written about the current regime....check the date. There's a new government that was elected and in office since that article was written.
     
  13. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #13
    As I said, background. Helps to know what went on before.

    Today? http://www.japantoday.com/category/world/view/east-ukraine-city-dying-under-siege

    Q: Why is it okay for the US to do humanitarian things in war-torn areas, but evil and badnasty for the Russians to do so? Again, we are the ones who ignited this mess. I don't know if it started during the Clinton tenure, but it was going on during Dubya's and was certainly exacerbated by the Obama gang.
     
  14. jb1280 macrumors 6502a

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    #14
    You are giving the United States way too much credit for events in a region the US has traditionally had limited influence.
     
  15. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #15
    so I guess that means you can't support your claim about the current government? :p
     
  16. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #16
    We haven't always seen eye to eye, but Macky Mac clearly knows his stuff about this part of the world, and he is clearly a moderate.
     
  17. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #17
    I don't pay much attention to "slant" but whether or not events happened or if people did certain things or are members of certain groups.

    So, ran across these, today, in an article by Paul Craig Roberts:

    http://www.unz.com/article/the-ukraine-corrupted-journalism-and-the-atlanticist-faith/

    And,

    http://sputnikipogrom.com/europe/germany/18213/russian-appeal/ (From a guy who sounds seriously POed.)

    Look: Is there any real doubt that such as Right Force are strongly influential in the Ukraine government? That Ukraine's "Azov Group" is Neo-Nazi? Is there any doubt about the destruction of civilian targets in Donetsk by Ukraine forces?

    Any doubt that the purpose of our $5 billion effort at destabilizing the Ukraine government was to get Ukraine into the EU? And then into NATO?

    Overall, if it's okay to expand NATO into the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, et al, then why did we get so upset over Soviet missiles in Cuba?

    Here's a photo I shot in Manila in 1949, looking at a government building from Intramuros, the old walled city. Ctrl/scroll to embiggenate. From what I saw in South Korea in 1954/55, Seoul, Yong-dong-po and Inchon were much worse. Artillery is sorta rough on the people inside. Wouldn't have this civil war going on in Ukraine but for US meddling.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #18
    The so-called Ukrainian government has squandered any legitimacy it may have scraped together by shelling its own civilians. The sooner Ukraine is either federalised or the east secedes completely, the better. Russia is doing no more than the US has done on countless occasions, and with better reasons.
     
  19. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #19
    Trying to remember when the US last grabbed land from Canada or Mexico using tanks, APC's and self-propelled howitzers. Hmmm... not in recent memory. :rolleyes:

    Frankly I'd be happier if the US would stay out of this one†. This is Europe's problem. If the EU doesn't mind Russia invading countries in Europe, then why should the US be bothered? So long as it is understood that the US won't come to the aid of Europe if Putin keeps going and starts invading EU countries in the Baltic, particularly since most European countries in NATO spend nothing like the recommended amount on defence....

    †*cough* Still waiting for any evidence whatsoever that the US spent any money on covert operations in the Ukraine before Russia invaded, as some above implied, *cough*
     
  20. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #20
    Poisoning americans to get rid of russia...... couldnt make it up.
     
  21. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #21
    I may have got it wrong:
    http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/06/1282792/-US-Did-Not-Spend-5-Billion-to-Destabilize-Yanukovich
     
  22. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #22
    I really hope that Iran is taking notes.


    Military option on Ukraine 'does not exist', says new EU chief.



    There can be no military solution to the Ukraine crisis, only a political one, Federica Mogherini, the European Union's new head of foreign policy, has insisted.
    In her first interview since being appointed at the weekend, Ms Mogherini, soon to step down as Italy's foreign minister, said: "It's in the interests of Ukraine, Europe and Russia that the crisis should have a political, not a military solution."
    The prospect of Europe going to war to defend Ukraine against Russian aggression "simply does not exist", she insisted.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...Ukraine-does-not-exist-says-new-EU-chief.html

    Unlike 2003 Russia really does have WMD, so there is no need to lie.

    It's also the main reason that the US as not pushed to hard and invaded.
     
  23. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #23
    In this regard I bet the Ukrainians regret giving up their nukes in exchange for pledges from Russia and NATO that there would be no military intervention. The lesson: do not trust Putin any farther than you can throw him.
     
  24. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #24
    Hence the Iran statement WMD no invasion, no WMD you get invaded.:p

    Also on mainland Europe History has taught us march East and die, the Teutonic Knights, Napoleon, and Hitler. :p
     
  25. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #25
    More like march east in the winter and die. Plenty of people have kicked Russia's ass in the summertime, but winter always comes and saves them in the end.
     

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