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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by zelmo, May 24, 2008.
Stumbled across this while looking for news of a live DVD from King's X
The issue I don't get about homosexuality is.... that in the Christian faith it's a sin just like every other sin... or adultery to be exact.
Being gay is just like being a fibber (bearing false witness), a murderer (killing) or not respecting the sabbath day.
It's people, mainly non-Christians and those not reading the book correctly that made it out ot be a cultural thing.
Wow... This is me in a nutshell. I was raised a die-hard Christian, and am still forced to be one. I say forced because i feel the same as this article. I believe in God, but i just wonder why I am like this if it is so wrong. I remember my youth minister really hated the fact that i liked Pantera and other "bad" bands, yet he listened to and always talked about loving the band Oasis, who have pretty bad songs. But I live in a small closet and can never come out because of the strong christian beliefs my family has. This article really spoke to me, like i almost cried because i never opened my mind to think that there ever was anyone in the same boat as me. Thanks for posting this, you really changed my perspective on life
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by this sentence.
Could you rephrase it for me please? Thanks.
Having feelings for the same sex isn't a cultural thing, it's a sexual one.
I do see where I messed up though... I should of used the word "heritage" instead... Being "gay" is a lifestyle in other words.
It shouldn't be forced upon you in anyway, that is not how it should work.
It should be a choice from YOU and no one else. That's why God gave us free will. I wish I could do something to help you and your parents with that, but I do hope that you can get them to understand that it's a choice that YOU have to make for yourself and it can't be forced on you by anyone.
Ok, so if I understand you right, you're saying that the current conflict that gay Christians face is due to their perception that sexuality is in conflict with their religion.
Is that right?
And you've lost me again.
Lifestyles are chosen and created. I don't see how we can equate the two (as in being gay is necessarily governed by having a specific lifestyle). There might be a certain type of lifestyle that is associated with it, much like there is with being a WASP, but that doesn't mean that being a WASP is a lifestyle any more than being gay is a lifestyle.
Are you referring to the choice to be a devout Christian/follow a specific faith?
Without commenting on anything I have said, what do you think?
I am just curious to know, since the issues dealing with homosexuality and religion are often misguided and extremely personal ones.
Not that anything misguided has been said though. I would like to know your stance on the issues before I have to fully explain my own.
As for the last part, the choice to be a person of faith in general is one that has to be a choice that is made by the person, Christianity included. If one doesn't choose to make it their own religion, then they aren't in any way practicing the foundation of that faith.
Wow. I just love the way he taints the whole thing by saying he's only gay because of abuse. Cheers Doug
I personally can't understand why anybody would be so desperate to hold onto a creed that tells them repeatedly they are the lowest slime on the Earth. He can rewrite the Bible all he likes, but those who follow it will still consider him to be a leper amongst them. Have they really beaten all the self-worth out of him to that extent?
It's a little unreasonable to ask someone to interpret what you've said when his interpretation so far is "it isn't clear what you're trying to say." And it isn't, at all. You're only inviting misunderstanding and possibly misplaced offense until you clarify what you mean.
Honestly I have no idea what to think.
To me it almost seems as if you're saying that there is some choice involved in sexuality, which if you are, I have pity for you.
Why does that matter? If you lay out our point of view well enough, it doesn't matter what my point of view is.
However, since you've asked, I'll answer:
Sexuality is determined by factors which humanity has yet to fully understand. The one thing that is certain, however, is that it is no more a choice than eye color, race, etc.
I suspected that that's what you were talking about, but I had to be sure.
I am glad that we agree on this.
The reason I asked is because our opinions do differ on the sexuality part. You don't have to have pity on me for understanding that sexuality in a large part is a choice, just like many of the things mankind does do after they are conscience decision makers.
You will be surprised at how many people actually choose to be gay and how many flip flop back and forth.
Another reason I asked for your stance on the situation was to insure the civility of the thread, and so I can censor my comments. Honestly, if I don't believe sexuality is a fully natural thing, and you don't believe it's a fully conscience decision, then there is no understanding to be had by either of us. Not that we couldn't discuss it, just that the very lifeless realm of the web won't do it any justice IMHO.
But just to clarify for the sake of clarification. I have plenty of homosexual friends, and a good deal of them are devout practicing Christians that understand their position. They themselves believe that their sexuality and sexuality as a whole is a majority choice. They choose to act on their sexual feelings. And they know that it's a sin to do so, and just like every other sin, it's a choice.
We have talked about it openly in the work place, the churches, and the different colleges we attended. One of the prevailing things that we get out of the conversation is that it's a choice, they have made it and are sticking with it. Which is okay since it's a sin like any other.
When it comes to Christian circles that go above and beyond to make a homosexual feel like a leper.... they aren't reading the book correctly, have a really awful translation (and there are many), and aren't being good examples of the faith. Unfortunately that type of church is about 70% of what you find in the states.
I didn't ask Calboy to interpret, just to give what he/she thinks about the issue mainly to see where he/she stands before I say something that really pisses him/her off.
You do not understand it is a choice, though you may believe it is a choice.
You are confusing being gay with practising their homosexuality. A celibate person may still be homosexual (or indeed heterosexual).
Not much honest debate to be had on the subject if you "censor your comments".
Sounds to me like those gay friends of yours are brainwashed into believing there's something wrong with them. Religions love to do that. Find the thing that makes someone different, then make them feel guilty about it.
It's all about control. Always has been.
If you could, please tell me when you sat down and made the conscious decision to like women.
Was it a pros vs cons list that you made? Women have nicer hair, cheeks, etc? What led you to make the choice that you were attracted to women?
It is possible to be attracted to both sexes. The people you refer to likely go back in forth in terms of who they sleep with, but they likely find both sexes attractive to begin with.
No need to censor your comments. I won't take offense, but I will logically shred your argument to bits (hope that's alright with you ).
On the contrary, there is much understanding to be gained. You might, for example, claim that the Sun revolves around the Earth. It would be very irresponsible of me to allow you to continue to have this belief when it is based on nothing more than old fashioned speculation and the political desires of a church.
These two statements are in conflict.
If they believe it's a choice (which deep down they know it isn't), why do they continue to act on their feelings? That is the very definition of a bad Christian. Repeated sinning is unacceptable, especially if it is within one's control.
I see, so a sin can be committed without any concern so long as one knows it is a sin?
Otherwise, I trust you don't deposit your money in an interest-bearing account, a clear sin in the Bible.
I really wonder how well you know your "friends" if they're willing to continue lying to you or to themselves.
Or perhaps you've managed to find the most brainwashed gay people on the planet.
Don't worry, you can't possibly "piss me off" with your opinion; not responding to my post, however, will cause me to think less of you.
I totally agree with everything Calboy has said, it is not and never has been a choice that one makes. I never sat down and said, well I have no luck with girls and I seem to be attracted to other guys so maybe it is wise for me to be gay. No it was never like that. I was gay and no one accepts it, of course some people can't know, for reasons know only to me... I know, speaking only for myself, i would never in a million years choose to be gay, why would i want everyone to hate me. I just have to accept myself for who I was made to be, and so do others around me. I sin everyday, I constantly use the lord's name in vain, and I am gay which is considered, to most christians, to be a sin. There is nothing in the bible saying that if you commit the same sin repeatedly that you will not be forgiven. It states that you will be forgiven for any sin you commit, as long as you truly believe. I'm gay everyday haha,some may not know it, but I was made this way, and have never made such a choice as to what sex I am attracted to.
I found this to be very informative. I guess I never appreciated the inner turmoil some gay people go through. I am very glad I read this. How typical is this? I would imagine that how a person is raised, and how they would be accepted, would be a significant contributor. Is this true?
haha if you read my posts, it describes my life to the fullest.... but i don't know if there is a statistic if thats what you are looking for...
This looks interesting. I bookmarked it to read later. King's X are a great band.
The beliefs you're brought up with have a large impact on how you view yourself, but ultimately social pressures still have a very profound effect on the individual.
I wasn't raised in a religious atmosphere, but I do know that I went through a very tough phase in which I wanted to be "normal." I knew no one in my family/extended family who was openly gay, and that makes it very hard. We often look to our families for guidance on philosophical issues, and like this kid, I had to look elsewhere to find comfort in knowing that I am just fine the way I am.
So I guess the answer is "yes" in a very loose sense, but I wouldn't restrict it to just religion. A whole bunch of factors come together to determine the type of life you will lead as a gay person. I'm glad to see that at least this kid had positive encouragement from his band mates; it would have been hell for him to face this alone.
Homosexuality seems to have been the topic of discussion lately, hasn't it?
I'm guessing it was something like this:
Many are insane people who are insane
Can share wardrobe
Boobies (lack of)
But that's just my expert opinion as an expert opinion maker.
That's the saddest article I've ever read. It's so sad that so many people think there's something wrong with them. I wonder if they'd feel that way if there were no religion to tell them that? I grew up in a fundamentalist family as well, so I can relate to what he's saying. The difference is that I finally realized there wasn't anything wrong with me at all, but that there was a lot wrong with organized religion.
The issue is that some people are uncomfortable with homosexuality. So hey hide behind religion, using it to justify their feelings. Some of them are just uncomfortable with the idea, some are self hating, being gay themselves but not being able to deal with it. Usually because of religious belief. It's a vicious cycle. And there needs to be a scapegoat for some people, especially those desiring power. It's been commies, and slaves, and witches. Now it's gays, and even immigrants (though that's a common one). And terrorists, but that's another issue. But those other things are more palpable. Eating shellfish, being around a menstruating woman, wearing mixed cloths, even adultery is fine for some people. Look at how many of those so against homosexuality do that last one, sometimes even with someone of the same sex. It isn't even a sin really, it's an abomination. Which is just another word for icky. It's only a sin if it's in a adulterous way or the like. But it becomes a sin because some people want to say it is because they don't like it. Then others don't like it because it's been called a sin.
Doesn't make sense to me either, but if it was logical, they wouldn't call it belief.
It's election season coming up.
I can see what you're saying, I accept myself for who I am, but the problem is getting my parents to accept it. My mom is the hardcore Christian who hates homosexuality.
I did read your post here, and I found it also very informative, even moving. I think it helped me to decide to post on this thread. I am really in the dark about such matters.
I actually have many close friends, and a family member, who are gay. However, I just do not ever think to discuss people's romantic lives, whether straight or gay, unless they initiate the conversation.
A thread like this, gives me the opportunity to learn about subjects I have zero knowledge of. And, to answer your question, I was not looking for statistics, or anything that detailed. Just an opinion, or two.