Hillary is the New Nader

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Kashchei, Feb 1, 2008.

  1. Kashchei macrumors 65816

    Kashchei

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    #1
    Polls for months have indicated that, given a head-to-head race between McCain and either Hillary or Obama, Hillary would lose by a small margin while Obama would win by a slightly larger margin. Part of this is undoubtedly because her negatives are so high, conservatives would head to the polls in droves just to keep her and her husband out of the White House. Many things can change between now and November, but if Hillary's true reason for running is to help the American people with Democratic reform after the Bush years, these polls would indicate that she is playing the Nader role in 2000 by staying in the race. Might she not serve a greater good and prove that her candidacy is about compassion rather than ego by dropping out of the race and throwing all her delegates to Obama?
     
  2. Naimfan macrumors 68040

    Naimfan

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  3. djejrejk macrumors 6502a

    djejrejk

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    #3
    You have no Idea what you are talking about.. Clinton has as much of a right to run as Obama or Nader or McCain.
     
  4. Naimfan macrumors 68040

    Naimfan

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    #4
    I won't presume to speak for Kashchei, since he's quite capable of speaking for himself, but I suspect he was inspired by this thread.
     
  5. Don't panic macrumors 603

    Don't panic

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    #5
    if Clinton didn't have a chance, maybe you'd have a point, but she does, so you don't. (for the record, i slightly favor Obama at the moment)

    in most recent polls McCain is statistically tied with both Obama and Clinton.
    How can so many people still be ready to vote for the GOP after these 7 ghastly years, however, is truly beyond me.
     
  6. Kashchei thread starter macrumors 65816

    Kashchei

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    #6
    I agree with you wholeheartedly that Clinton has as much right to run as any of the candidates. I am interested in something quite different, which is whether Hillary's true goal is the presidency at all cost or her purported reason, to help the American people after 8 years of Bush. I tend to think that both factors weigh in her mind, but she could prove her altruism if she dropped out and threw her delegates to Obama.

    For the record, I am not recommending that she do this; too much can happen in politics practically overnight. The thought just crossed my mind that at this moment--if the polls are correct--she is playing the role of Nader back in 2000. Also for the record: I'd vote for Hillary in a heartbeat if the choice were between her and McCain. I just started this thread to see what others thought.

    Naimfaim: You are right--I was inspired by the recent Nader thread!
     
  7. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #7
    I don't understand the Nader comparison. He ran as a third-party candidate in the general election and arguably siphoned enough votes from Gore to give the election to Bush. If Clinton was nominated, how could she be called a spoiler?
     
  8. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #8
    The race between her and Obama is a virtual tie, with Obama having more momentum right now. So, suggesting she should drop out is extremely premature at this point.

    The republican slime machine has been after Hillary for years. It has never let up. So far, Obama has been spared from their focused attention (with a few notable exceptions). If he becomes the party's candidate, he will start getting their full attention. I wonder how he will respond. If the republican slimmers cannot find any dirt on him, the will just make it up. You cannot prepare for that.

    It seems to me that the republicans want to have Romney run against Obama. They are not happy that McCain has been able to steal Romney's thunder. It is also apparent that their party is factionalized right now. I wonder how much unification they can do by November? I do not envision many hardcore conservatives voting democratic. That is simply not something they would do. So, regardless of who their candidate is, they will most likely get behind the eventual winner. I think most of the moderate vote will move left.

    To prevent that from happening, the republican strategists will really have to launch a serious smear campaign. If they can get Nader to grab 5%, that would definitely help their cause. But, that is irrelevant during the primaries. So, I cannot see any correlation between Hillary running a very close campaign, and Nader coming in as a republican spoiler. I think the fact the republicans are financing his campaign is powerful evidence as to who wants him there.
     
  9. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #9
    ^^I disagree, I think they are rallying behind McCain, the Dems seem to be the ones that don't know what direction to go as it is a dead heat.
     
  10. Iscariot macrumors 68030

    Iscariot

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    #10
    Wait... so a series of contests that are highly flawed in game theory would have a sub-optimal outcome? :eek:
     
  11. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #11
    I stand by my post, but appreciate your opinion. I think the difference is the democrats had many strong candidates, and the republicans have pretty much zip. In a couple days, we shall get a better feel of whether this is borne out by how the electorates vote.
     
  12. stevento macrumors 6502

    stevento

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    #12
    polls are not written in stone

    there will be a huge contrast between hillary and mccain

    1. hillary wants to end the war; mccain wants it to go on for another 100 years (really he said that)
    2. john mccain has stated the economy isn't his strong point
    there's not going to be anyone on the fence this time.
     
  13. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #13
    New Nader? Naahhhhh. Nader believed what he said. Hillary keeps talking evermore toward the center--and I'm seriously sceptical about an epiphany. :D

    'Rat
     
  14. nbs2 macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #14
    As I've tried to mention before, it costs nothing to speak with your mouth, everything to speak with your wallet.

    I don't know where the OP is getting his/her data, but as others have mentioned, the polls have both Dems in a dead heat with McCain. What he/she doesn't seem to realize is that intrade has Clinton just ahead of McCain, with Obama lagging 11 points back. Not only that, but Clinton is a 60-40 favorite over Obama to take the nomination.

    So isn't Obama "the New Nader"?
     
  15. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #15
    Most of the Dems, and independents, and even some Repubs, are fine with most of the Dem candidates. While that has changed somewhat lately with all the infighting amongst themselves, yet still being spineless against the GOP, and there's still a lot of Hillary hate, people are supporting the Dems. Or, at least, against the GOP. Some of the more hardcore Repubs are unhappy with what they have. Huckabee has the fundies, Paul has the libertarians, Romney has the fiscals, McCain the moderates, but not only is no one is the frontrunner, unlike with the liberals, there are a lot of different factions who would be very unhappy with any of the others in their party winning the nom. The conservative media especially doesn't seem to like McCain. Fox news has been speaking out against him, as has Limbaugh. Ann Coulter actually said she'd rather stump for Hillary. Yeah, I thought she was kidding to, but she appears to be serious.
     
  16. Kashchei thread starter macrumors 65816

    Kashchei

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    #16
    Granted, much has happened since this post, but here are some more recent poll results to support my original contention.
     
  17. Virgil-TB2 macrumors 65816

    Virgil-TB2

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    #17
    Kashei, I am not usually this blunt, but you are being completely foolish here. You don't know what you are talking about at all. Polls not only "vary" but most are completely made up. :eek: They are purposely structured to give a certain result, so they can be used to convince people to believe one thing or another.

    Take a step back and look at the big picture and you will see that the Republicans have not got a hope in heck of getting elected, period. Barring the so-called "false-flag" scenario, they cannot win no matter who is their candidate.

    This is a repeat of the Bob Dole/Clinton election. There are no serious Republican candidates and they are not going to win. It's just a matter of who's "turn" it is to be the candidate and who has the least amount of scandal in their past. McCain is a total nut-job he just happens to be the only candidate running with an almost complete lack of scandalous behaviour, therefore he gets to be the guy that pretends to run for President this time. He is an "honest" nut-job.

    After the most reviled, worst president in history, who squandered the countries wealth and good name all over the planet, it's pretty much a done deal that no Republican is going to get in this time. We just have to pretend that they have a chance so as not to make things look bad.

    Stop worrying about Hillary not being "strong" enough to defeat an also-ran "placeholder" like McCain.
     
  18. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #18
    That is a bit bold statement is it not. I would not count anyone out at this stage in the race.

    I don't know why you think McCain is a "nutjob". Care to explain.
     
  19. Kashchei thread starter macrumors 65816

    Kashchei

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    #19
    I have to admit that I am not as sanguine as you about November's election. You may think that I am completely foolish, that a Democrat--any Democrat--can be elected after 8 years of Bush. I hope you are right about this, but I remember thinking that Bush could never get elected in 2000 or again in 2004, that Reagan was a bad actor and had no chance in 1980, etc. In short, I think it is folly to rest on our laurels and assume that victory will fall in the laps of the Democrats. The Republicans are not good at governing but they are very good at campaigning. How else would they get people to vote against their economic interests?

    I know this will never happen, but I wish that Hillary would realize that she will bring too much baggage to the general election and mobilize GOP voters ambivalent about McCain in a way that Obama would not. Based on this fact alone, I would like to see Hillary announce that she would accept the position of VP on Obama's ticket. We would have a unified party, a presumptive candidate at the same time as the GOP, and a stronger chance of winning the election in November. And I am not a rabid Hillary hater: I much prefer her plan for health care, to cite one example. I base my argument on what Dubya would refer to as political strategery.

    I am not usually this blunt, but aside from your contention that polls are not accurate predictors of what will actually happen on election day, your argument is rather thin. Authoritative delivery does not automatically make what is said or written true. It is the strength of the rhetoric used in the argument that can sway the opinion of others. Craig Ferguson puts this much more humorously.
     
  20. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #20
    You seem to be describing push-polls, which are another animal entirely.
     
  21. zap2 macrumors 604

    zap2

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    #21
    Thats not what he is saying...

    reread that post, and make sure you really think the OP is saying that.
     
  22. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #22
    curious, can you provide a link to some evidence of this?
     
  23. Cleverboy macrumors 65816

    Cleverboy

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    #23
    I've begun hearing grumblings over whether Clinton should drop-out by committing political seppuku for the benefit of the party (I believe I read an article this morning suggesting it). They're grumblings only, and perhaps premature, but they're certainly there.

    Obama just won Louisiana, Nebraska, Washington, U.S. Virgin Islands and at this point is projected to win Maine (according to CNN) by a margin of almost 20 points (currently 59% to 41%, an 18 point lead). The upcoming Potomac Primary (Virginia, Maryland and D.C.) on Tuesday, and later Hawaii (where he's seen as a native son) is also expected to go in favor Obama and possibly putting him in the delegate lead for the first time... attesting to his tremendous momentum and his escalating levels of support from the base. With lower "negative" ratings than both McCain and Clinton, and more independent and Republican appeal, it really does not look like Hillary should be the choice of any democratic strategist for the party nomination. The amount of "youth" vote expected to evaporate if Obama isn't nominated is becoming more significant.

    I think comparisons to "Nadar" are flimsy at best, but with respect to possible Democratic success in the general election, I do believe the shared label of "spoiler" would probably be HIGHLY appropriate.

    ~ CB
     

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