Honduras

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by obeygiant, Jul 2, 2009.

  1. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    #1
    Bloomberg


    A couple weeks ago Obama was hesitant to meddle in the Iran where they're shooting their own people. Now its seems he's over eager to meddle on behalf of a Chavez wannabe. The Obama Administration says they're trying to preserve democracy and the process, however supporting Zelaya is anything but, with his march towards dictatorship.

    I think the ousting of Zelaya is what everyone wanted, but the manner in which it happened was not what the US government would have preferred.
     
  2. brad.c macrumors 68020

    brad.c

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  3. Unspoken Demise macrumors 68040

    Unspoken Demise

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    Do you really need to ask? :rolleyes:
     
  4. CorvusCamenarum macrumors 65816

    CorvusCamenarum

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    #4
    I find both Obama's and Clinton's comments hilarious, given that Zelaya's removal was precisely what the Honduran constitution demanded:

    ARTICULO 239.- El ciudadano que haya desempeñado la titularidad del Poder Ejecutivo no podrá ser Presidente o Designado. El que quebrante esta disposición o proponga su reforma, así como aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesarán de inmediato en el desempeño de sus respectivos cargos, y quedarán inhabilitados por diez años para el ejercicio de toda función pública. source

    Plugging this into the translator widget gives:
    The citizen who has carried out the ownership of the Executive authority could not be Designated President or Vice-President. The one that break this disposition or propose its reform, as well as those that supports it direct or indirectly, will stop immediately in the performance of their respective positions, and will be disqualified for ten years for the exercise of all public function.

    While I'm sure we lose something in the translation, the basic idea remains. Zelaya was evidently trying to circumvent this prohibition and was lawfully removed from power.

    There's a good article here that tells the part of the story that Obama and Co. won't.
     
  5. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #5
    Yeah, Obama and Clinton did The Dumbo Dance on this one. To support Zelaya is no different from wanting Dubya to have run for a third term--which would have been equally legal...

    And to support a brown-nosing friend of avowed enemies such as Castro and Ortega does not strike me as Infinite Wisdom, either.

    Not at all unexpected, of course; just shows that the Peter Principle still holds true.

    'Rat
     
  6. jav6454 macrumors P6

    jav6454

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    Wrong. Not even close to what was trying to be done by Zelaya. Lol, I'm a national of Honduras, currently in the country for "vacations" from studies; however, break is over due to unforseen circumstances....:rolleyes:

    Real reason why he ws outsted. He was trying to promote a public referendum question which literally says:

    Also, he has given worldwide press conference and has said he does not seek re-election which is what his opposers argue or well, argued.

    Edit: Sorry no sources, the only source (government webpage) was taken offline due, to well, new military government reasons. Ironically, the actions the military, judicial and legislative are even more illegal (ousting a democratically elected president) than asking the people would you like a 4th ballot (which many government branches thought was blasphemy)
     
  7. CorvusCamenarum macrumors 65816

    CorvusCamenarum

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    #7
    A Honduran Supreme Court justice would seem to disagree with you. link

    The Honduran ambassador to the US would also disagree. link
     
  8. jav6454 macrumors P6

    jav6454

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    Yes, they would. Naturally, given it was the Supreme Court and Congress who gave order to kidnapped and exiled the democratically elected president, so, that wouldn't give them much more credibility would it? Naturally of coarse, they all support the new "government" however, the world at large knows best. The UN and OAS would also disagree with you and agree with me.

    We can go on and on and on, debating who is right or wrong. In the end, it is the people who suffer, not the governing class.

    Honestly, what I really want is the current "government" to step down and let them man finish the job and then, get back to killing/imprisoning themselves. At least that will give the people (as a whole) rest for a good 6 months at minimum.

    Edit: Forgot to mention the whole Zelaya re-election thing, was a lie perpetrated by a local news station who from the beginning did nothing but slam Zelaya. Coarse they admit to nothing, but it is clear among many it was a fake story. Confirmed by Zelaya before (months before) and after the coup, he does not seek 2nd term/re-election.

    Edit 2: BTW, I support neither whole heartedly. However, Congress, in order to appoint new government, read a faked resignation letter. So, that little bit changes everything. I am not pro-Zelaya; however, using a fake letter to remove him is the lowest thing you can do. Also, it goes to sow it was more of a power struggle than anything else. After, they had no other way to remove him. The proper thing was to impeach Zelaya first, charge him, then put him on trial, judge and finally give the verdict. That's how it's supposed to be.

    But oh well, what do I know. I mean, taking a president in a hostile and force of arms manner out of the country. Stranding him on foreign soil, then censoring all local news stations while adding to that the fact that many foreign new stations (CNN, FOX...) were cut off. Including the fact that they are currently suppressing the people with a curfew and suspending many freedoms of the Constitution does not qualify as a military coup d'etat, then I honestly, don't know what does.

    Edit 3: Seriously, people should really come down here before they express opinions who is right and wrong. I mean no offense, but its a touchy subject for many of us currently. I applaud Obama's approach of only recognizing Zelaya and taking a wait and see stance. He can't intervene here, no matter how much I want the US military to make things right. But, there are other ways to deal with mis-behaviors.
     
  9. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #9
    jav6454, you may be correct. The problem you face is that of the history of behavior of so many of the "freely elected" presidents of Caribbean, Central American and South American countries. The allegations against Zelaya are nothing new as to his purported efforts. Too much history of "One man, one vote, one time."--or efforts in that direction.

    'Rat
     
  10. jav6454 macrumors P6

    jav6454

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    Yeah I know. But then again, we are third world... somehow in a way this never surprises me, just its another reasons to why I should stay in the US, and I don't want to stay in the US, but if things keep up, well, I may be out of choices.
     
  11. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    From what I've seen firsthand, seen on TV or read in wide-ranging media, most third-world countries have remained third world because of the political and socio/economic systems. Too many thugocracies. Bosses on top who regard those on the bottom as cash cows.

    One thing I've enjoyed about the U.S. is the emotional freedom. "Mental elbow room". Add to that the ease of making a comfortable living via penny-ante entrepreneurial efforts.

    As for Honduras, I'll make a final judgement based on StratFor's take. They've been one of the best objective sources for political analyses and the meanings thereof ever since they first began operations.
     
  12. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #12
    From the Christian Science Monitor:

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0702/p09s03-coop.html

    "Under our Constitution, what happened in Honduras this past Sunday? Soldiers arrested and sent out of the country a Honduran citizen who, the day before, through his own actions had stripped himself of the presidency.

    These are the facts: On June 26, President Zelaya issued a decree ordering all government employees to take part in the "Public Opinion Poll to convene a National Constitutional Assembly." In doing so, Zelaya triggered a constitutional provision that automatically removed him from office.

    Constitutional assemblies are convened to write new constitutions. When Zelaya published that decree to initiate an "opinion poll" about the possibility of convening a national assembly, he contravened the unchangeable articles of the Constitution that deal with the prohibition of reelecting a president and of extending his term. His actions showed intent.

    Our Constitution takes such intent seriously. According to Article 239: "No citizen who has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President. Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform [emphasis added], as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years."

    Notice that the article speaks about intent and that it also says "immediately" – as in "instant," as in "no trial required," as in "no impeachment needed."
    ________

    If indeed that's the phrasing of Article 239, it looks like the Honduran Supreme Court is correct in its judgment.

    'Rat
     
  13. neiltc13 macrumors 68040

    neiltc13

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    #13
    Who cares what the US Government wants?

    Last time I checked Honduras wasn't part of the United States.
     
  14. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    The circumstances are hardly similar.

    Obama appears to be not so much supporting Zelaya as he is supporting the idea that coups are not the way to conduct legitimate change. And given the lustful hatred shown by his political opponents in this country, it's hardly surprising that he'd feel that way...

    Come on now 'Rat... you should know better than to peddle opinion pieces as fact.
     
  15. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

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    Zelaya to return on Sunday?

    from Al Jazeera

    Zelaya will return on sunday accompanied by the presidents of argentina and ecuador? or will the military prevent the plane from landing?

     
  16. jav6454 macrumors P6

    jav6454

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    It can become a potential blood bath. So much, my family (from next fo kin to grandmas/pas and aunt/uncles) has decided not to even go to the corner of their block. Hell, lights are out in many places of the country... including my house... luckily a handy 3G modem and laptop battery can provide coverage for what's about to come.
     
  17. obeygiant thread starter macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    You're missing the point. These are foreign policy tests for the Obama Administration. So far, IMO, he's got it backwards. He should have had taken a more immediate hard line on Iran's elections and been soft on the coup in Honduras. The world is watching. Now North Korea and Iran's Ahmadinejad are testing the boundaries of his foreign policies.
     
  18. MacDawg macrumors P6

    MacDawg

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    #18
    Just an FYI, flights are canceling in TGU today ;)

    Woof, Woof - Dawg [​IMG]
     
  19. neiltc13 macrumors 68040

    neiltc13

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    #19
    Uh, no wonder people don't like your country if you see theirs as a "test" for your new leader.
     
  20. obeygiant thread starter macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    #20
    If you're still viewing this issue through the prism of "the US is the center of the universe and everyone else can go **** themselves" you would be mistaken.

    Obama is relatively new on the world stage and I think he and Hillary Clinton are still finding their personality as it were in dealing with friends and foes around the world. Hold on to your disdain for the US for a moment and look at it from a perspective of a world citizen. Happenings in Iran and Honduras and most other places eventually effect the rest of the world and many look to the governments of North America and Europe to see how they react. This certainly is a test and you've been unclear as to why you think it isn't.
     
  21. jav6454 macrumors P6

    jav6454

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    Well, this is not entirely true. All flights carrying president Zelaya are canceled. All other flights are allowed to land.

    Also, the coup leaders have even gone as far as saying they are not to allow Zelaya to land, even if the same plane carries x number of presidents or international officials (even if it is Obama himself) the plane is not to land.

    It makes me wonder. They want to judge him and incarcerate (imprison) him. Yet, they refuse to let him land? What better chance they got right now to capture him and judge him. Yet, they fear him. Goes to show, they are scared and many people know this.

    I for one, just hope this ends quickly, sick and tired of curfew and suspension of civil liberties.

    This is very true. In fact, Nicaragua (our neighbor country), has filed a complaint accusing the coup leaders of spreading wide false information. The Nicaraguan government states the coup leaders are scaring Hondurans with information that Nicaraguan forces have invade the border and are crossing with arms.

    That of coarse is false, since people living near the border say everything is clear as day.

    This conflict is already affecting the region. I hope Obama does make his stance clear.
     
  22. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #22
    So you're saying you would rather have had Obama provide a propaganda coup to the Iranian hardliners by immediately supporting the opposition candidate despite the fact that he had no real idea who actually won the election?

    How would you have felt if Iran had thrown their support behind Al Gore in 2000? And more importantly, how do you think the Republicans would have exploited that move domestically against the Democrats?

    Iran would have used an Obama gesture of support for Mousavi in the same way against the people you purport to support as a means to discredit them just like the GOP would have used it against Democrats had the reverse occurred in 2000.
     
  23. MacDawg macrumors P6

    MacDawg

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    They may be allowed to land and depart, but that does not mean the airlines will choose to do so. Some are cancelling commercial flights. Trust me on this. ;)

    Woof, Woof - Dawg [​IMG]
     
  24. jav6454 macrumors P6

    jav6454

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    #24
    I do. The coup leaders just announced entire closure of TGU International. It's currently entirely militarized and protests are aligned on both entrances and exits.

    The protestors are welcoming what they call their president. No one from the coup supporters is there. Only Zelaya's supporters; however, no one can access the airport directly as the entrances have been closed off by the military.
     
  25. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #25
    mac, the issue of any opinion piece is whether or not whatever is cited is factual; whether or not the "opinionator" is or is not lying or mistaken.

    In this case, per the CSM, the writer, "Octavio Sánchez, a lawyer, is a former presidential adviser (2002-05) and minister of culture (2005-06) of the Republic of Honduras."

    The writer may be biased, but that does not make him a liar.

    The question remains: Does Article 239 actually say what Mr. Sanchez stated as fact?

    'Rat
     

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