How Bush/Cheney will ensure we remain in Iraq..

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by SMM, Jan 13, 2008.

  1. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #1
    ... even when they are out of office.

    I do not see how he can ink an agreement, which debilitates a future President from implementing future foreign policy. Also, does this not prevent congress from making future funding decisions? If so, that is beyond the scope of his power (by the Constitution , but probably not in his mind). I sure hope congress finds a way to block this nonsense.
     
  2. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #2
    Apparently, he has the powers to do this, no question:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_agreement

     
  3. themadchemist macrumors 68030

    themadchemist

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    #3
    The Senate would have to approve this, though, by 2/3, right? They could reject it or kill it in committee, but that would require showing some gumption, which is often difficult for Congress.
     
  4. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #4
    60 years later we are still in Germany and Japan,50 years later still in Korea, see a pattern. We didnt spend a trillion dollars in Iraq to walk away. You can bet your corporation on that.
     
  5. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #5
    Nope. Congress has nothing to do with it. Bush would not use a formal treaty, which would be subject to Senate approval.
     
  6. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #6
    Yep- follow the money trail. This is really scary.
     
  7. Kashchei macrumors 65816

    Kashchei

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    Has anyone read Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States"? It lives up to its title, discussing history from the perspective of poor whites, slaves, indians, etc. and the common thread throughout the country's entire history is that those with wealth manage to make treaties to consolidate this wealth and power, often by embracing nationalism and patriotism to gain public support. In other words, the current GOP's efforts to get Joe Six-Pack to vote against his own economic interests is not a new idea. I'd love to hear what others think of this book.
     
  8. themadchemist macrumors 68030

    themadchemist

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    #8
    Well, if the democrats can spin it right while it's happening, then they might be able to create a basis for retracting it after Bush is gone--or discourage others from entering into the agreement because of doubt about the future reliability of the pact.

    But then again, I'm an optimist.
     
  9. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #9
    This President has shown anything can be broken,The Constitution, the Geneva Convention, Mad & ABM treaties, heck with signing statements and a republican congress willing to do nothing he has been making it up as he goes along. The next President should be able to do the same with a majority in Congress. Signing statements should be illegal in my view.
     
  10. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #10
    Bush certainly dropped treaties while in office. It definitely can be done. It's going to take enough people caring enough to not let it happen.

    But realistically, I think it's been pretty close to a done deal long before this peculation. Still, there's a big difference between, say, a commitment that perpetuates 5,000 troops deployed in Iraq indefinitely and one that translates to 100,000.

    In general, Bush has screwed our country; the best we can do going forward is minimize the damage.
     
  11. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #11
    I have much less of a problem with our troops in Germany, Japan and Korea because they're not killing or being killed.

    I don't see Iraq ever being peaceful, and we need to get out now before even more lives are lost.
     
  12. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #12
    I would agree, anywhere where Islam is the religion of the day tolerance towards other viewpoints isnt tolerated. Look at any country with this core thinking and you have what you have. Constant murder,killing etc. What a waste of time & money trying to throw democracy on top of a religion of intolerance.
     
  13. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #13
    Please don't pull out that religion of intolerance crap. Islam is not a religion of intolerance. The extremists which are a small minority of Muslims are the intolerant ones. And they'd be intolerant no matter what religion they practiced, whether it was Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Scientology or Pastafarian.
     
  14. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #14
    Ok then just look at any Islamic country and show me. Democracy & Islam is like Water & Oil they just dont mix. Im trying hard to think of any Islamic country thats not ran by a dictator or king wannabee.
     
  15. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #15
    You need to cut this out. Look things up before you write and you might avoid being just plain wrong more often. There is only one Muslim majority country in the world with a higher murder rate than the US, for example. Most of the countries at the top of the murder rate list are Christian majority.

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

    Homocide rates by country (predominant religion in parenthesis)

    #1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people (Christian)
    #4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people (Christian)
    #5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people (Christian)
    #6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people (Christian)
    #13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people (Islam)
    #24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
    #27 Yemen: 0.0336276 per 1,000 people (Islam)
    #29 Azerbaijan: 0.0285642 per 1,000 people (Islam)
    #34 Malaysia: 0.0230034 per 1,000 people (Islam)
    #50 Tunisia: 0.0112159 per 1,000 people (Islam)
    #61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people (Islam)
    #62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people (Islam)

    Or here's probably better statistics:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate

    Kyrgyzstan (8.01) and Pakistan (6.86) have higher murder rates than the US (5.9), all other Muslim majority states have a lower rate than the US. Iran's is less than half the US rate.
     
  16. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #16

    Egypt, Yemen and the UAE are 3 that come to mind.

    The UAE is technically a monarchy, but they're a monarchy much like the UK is a monarchy, the royal family are nothing more than some figureheads, and the elected officials do the work
     
  17. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #17
    Perhaps because they are all muslim? Im still waiting for a Islamic Democracy thats a shiny example to the world. Dont get me wrong here I think all religions are hocus pocus nonsense used to make $$$ and to control others. All based on fairy tales and dreams written thousands of years ago and still practice by mindless morons in the 21st century.
     
  18. SMM thread starter macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #18
    A thought occurred to me, which may hold some hope. Regardless of the propaganda the WH and the MSM have been shoving down our throats, Iraqi's want us out of their Country. The 'surge' victory, they are claiming, is mostly smoke and mirrors.

    Growing up, studying History in school, we were mostly led to believe that the indigenous people we encountered greatly benefitted by our presence. The same could also be said of sophisticated societies, and civilizations, which we just grabbed and colonized. There was always the belief that these people were not smart and advanced like we were. They were a 'lesser' people. Many of our foreign policy blunders can be traced to an arrogant lack of appreciation of the people we deal with. Iraq is an ancient civilization. To them, we are a bunch of puppies. We have constantly underestimated them.

    They could very well ask us to scrap this Bush Agreement, the minute he is on a plane back to Texas.
     
  19. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #19

    Is there any country in the world that's a shining example of democracy. The US brought democracy to the modern world and even we can't get it right sometimes
     
  20. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #20
    If by Christian they mean "non-Sharia law' countries. Russia Christian? Not in a long shot
     
  21. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    What does being a "christian" nation have to do with the murder rates anyway? In any case it looks as if those pesky Christians are real savages. No wonder the radical islamists want to wipe them out. Holy crap we've been on the wrong side all along! :eek:
     
  22. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #22
    That's entirely possible.........sort of like Saudi Arabia decided to end our agreement with them just as soon as they decided it wasn't in their best interest.

    Since this treaty doesn't exist yet, it's a bit premature to conclude what obligations it might or might not create. The same is true of what mechanism or action would be required for either party to cancel the agreement.
     
  23. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #23
    All of this of course assumes that a stable government will be in place in Iraq next January.

    Treaties are only valid if the two parties who signed them are still functioning. If some major upset occurred in Iraq, it wouldn't be hard to ignore it and like others have said, bushco has made it clear that treaties are meant to be broken, not honored.
     
  24. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #24
    That was only in response to something DHM said about the killings and murders in Islamic countries.

    This seems to be a last ditch effort of the current regime to keep the plan going in the case of a Dem Pres, which looks more and more likely even with the current crop. I doubt it's going to work though. If it even happens and the gov there is not only onboard but actually wants to stick with it, all it's going to do is give fodder to the Dems. Rather than what they seem to be trying to do, blocking them from being able to do anything about it in some lame effort to stop it from being talked about. If anything, if it does take, all it does is give the Dems an excuse not to have to actually deal with the issue. They'll say their hands are tied. Even though the current Pres has no problem breaking treaties, as mentioned, if someone like Hillary tries to break this, she'd never hear the end of it. Not that she would though, which of course she'd get criticized over.

    Maybe that's the ultimate goal, they're damned if they do, damned if they don't.
     
  25. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #25
    Read the post before you argue with it.

    Over 50% of Russians identify themselves as (Orthodox) Christian, which is the definition I was clearly using in my post (see "Muslim majority country...Christian majority")

    http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/5492-3.cfm
     

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