How do you right yourself after a major sports scandal?

Discussion in 'Community Discussion' started by 63dot, Aug 25, 2015.

  1. 63dot, Aug 25, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2015

    63dot macrumors 603

    63dot

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    #1
    I am getting so sick of deflategate and we are on the brink of starting a new NFL season.

    Baseball never had a more prolific hitter than Pete Rose but he is remembered most for his gambling scandal and there is a black spot on his record that even a Hall of Fame membership in the future will never erase. It's never Pete Rose who hit the most, but Pete Rose who gambled. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-b...-on-baseball-games-as-a-player-171119955.html

    You have the Chicago White Sox of 1919 dubbed the "black sox" who were ruined for all time by throwing the 1919 World Series and were banned for life in baseball. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sox_Scandal

    Now you have Tom Brady who won four Super Bowl rings as a starting quarterback like Joe Montana and Terry Bradshaw but will never be put in the same sentence (outside of Boston) as those two for having achieved the most in the biggest football game. His legacy as a player is ruined and in the same category as Pete Rose and the tainted black sox of 1919.

    What can he do to repair that?

    I wasn't sure about his salvation in the record books but then I heard a few suggest a fix for this which would mean returning ring in order to save coming NFL season for Pats (and also personal reputation as a great QB).

    And even today, I think he's not doomed like Pete Rose and the black sox even though he was penalized like those two and vilified by most of the press. Even though I don't find the "cheating" facts conclusive in any way and find the punishment ridiculous in that it punishes the entire Patriots team of this season by denying them of their starting quarterback, I think he can still completely right his image.

    It's obvious (and sad) he wasn't put in the same sentence once he got his 4th ring as Montana and Bradshaw because of deflategate. It wasn't just a passing thing and the scandal stuck. And that scandal will follow him all of his life and after and become a joke like the 1919 black sox.

    But imho there's two things he can do to get his clean slate back. If I were him I would right my reputation and help the current Patriots by:

    1) returning the 4th Super Bowl ring, and my record of having been on the Patriots last season (all yards and TDs gained regular and postseason) but ask in return then to be able to start this regular NFL season with a clean slate (and honestly, without him for four games, the Pats could miss the playoffs).

    2) not complaining and putting my money where my mouth is and winning a 4th ring totally uncontested without controversy this season or before retirement

    I think this would work to make things right in everybody's mind and even gain respect from fans of the other AFC East teams.

    I still think Brady is one of the greats like Jordan in basketball and Jeter in baseball and should retire with that type of adoration among fans of home team and entire sport in general (like any true great) and I think he still has that chance.
     
  2. AustinIllini macrumors demi-god

    AustinIllini

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    #2
    You get over it because deflate gate is unimportant and irrelevant.

    And with regard to the Black Sox
    1) What they did was significantly worse than deflating a football
    2) They played in a league that was severely damaged by unfair wages for players. They threw the World Series because Charles Comiskey wouldn't pay them. Major League Baseball deserved that scandall.
     
  3. 63dot, Aug 25, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2015

    63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

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    #3
    2) I didn't know the pay was an issue but that's probably a great backstory I didn't know about and it makes sense in that context.

    1) To me personally, deflategate isn't a big deal because I don't think he cheated (in football, but his wife is a different issue thus wanting to get rid of cellphone), but Tom Brady's 4th ring is a joke as far as many non-Patriots are concerned and not taken seriously, and forever put into a footnote like Barry Bonds having the most home runs, but later it being attributed to PEDs.

    Anytime outside of Boston if the four Super Bowls is brought up, the last one will be said it's because Tom Brady cheated. And though people can't find anything specific about the Super Bowl game, and probably not anything about the alleged deflated balls in the playoff game, that victory won't have much credibility in the playoff game or the Super Bowl.

    I know what it's like to see your team do well and it was a big deal to see Barry hit more home runs in a season than McGwire, but after the scandal I know most outside of my area consider it a product of drugs, and many here even want to forget that whole chapter. Those 73 home runs and all the excitement that it brought up here in the Bay Area is simply not discussed anymore and it's as if it didn't happen. The shame won't ever go away and the blow would have been less if Barry fessed up. If Barry told the truth then the negative attention would have spread around to the other athletes who doped up too, and it wouldn't be all about Barry and the drugs as if he was the only guilty one. Because of at least that year doping and probably other years, Barry Bonds has no legacy. And because of the unproven, but widely believed cheating by Tom Brady, he will have no legacy in the sport, either.

    People will talk about the great ones like Montana, Bradshaw, and Manning years from now, but Tom Brady won't ever come up just like Barry Bonds won't be mentioned when baseball fans talk about Willie Mays, Joe DiMaggio, and Derek Jeter.

    No, you don't get over it if it's what most people believe (that you cheated). Articles like this (below) pretty much paint Brady the same as the black sox or Pete Rose even though imho it wasn't the same and certainly not proven, but the bad end result is the same. Brady was punished just as severely as if he doped up and was caught.

    http://www.theguardian.com/sport/bl...new-and-now-his-legacy-is-irreparably-tainted
     
  4. Tomorrow macrumors 604

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    #4
    "Deflategate" is so insignificant compared to other sports scandals. The only reason this story gained any real traction is because it's Tom Brady, who is a very polarizing figure in football. Had it been any other player it would have already blown over, and in time this story will, as well.
     
  5. 63dot, Aug 26, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2015

    63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

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    #5
    Before deflategate, he was a star QB with a certain path to the Hall of Fame. He wasn't polarizing unless I guess you were a fan of a fellow AFC East team. Over here out west he was seen as a potential great put in the same sentence as Joe Montana and Terry Bradshaw who both had four Super Bowl rings and Brady was certainly headed there some year.

    Brady also had stellar regular season stats that put him in the same sentence as the great Peyton Manning, holder of a gazillion records, and things looked bright.

    Deflategate, whether one believes the allegations or not, will put Brady out of the "greats" consideration forever and deny him the Hall of Fame. It's certainly not big enough of a scandal to land him in jail like Michael Vick's dog fighting scandal, and it won't ban him from life from the sport, but it's still a damn shame to go this far, 3 uncontested seasons ending in Super Bowl rings, only to finally get the 4th in a postseason where most think you cheated.

    Let's say he did cheat last year (which I don't think is the case), the fallout isn't just this past season but football fans believing he cheated all along. There's certainly not a shred of evidence he cheated any other season but he will forever be labeled a "cheater".

    You can win just one Super Bowl like Hollywood Joe Namath and because you guaranteed a Super Bowl win before the game (bold statement) and pulled it off when people thought the NFC had it, you will forever be tied to that heroic game. But then you have Tom Brady who simply wins in three out of four years and snaps up three rings and is instantly considered one of the greats. His position seems untouchable and was year after year until last year where he "cheated". Now he's forever known as a cheater the same way Pete Rose is a "gambler".

    I am sure both would rather be remembered for being great players but "gambler" and "cheater" are not labels they can escape.

    But I think Tom can right this one and show some balls (forgive the pun) and return his ring and soldier on and keep being a great quarterback. America forgives people who ask for it but never forgive someone they perceive as a cheater who is unrepentant. Again I think he tossed the phone based on his extramarital issues and marriage problems (which weren't largely known last year). It hurt to see Tom dragged through the mud (in what was a trumped up investigation imho) but at least he had Giselle, but now he doesn't have that. Until there's proof, I don't believe the allegations of the alleged mistress with pictures of Tom's rings on her fingers, and of a lady who was once tied with friend Ben Affleck. The press goes crazy with allegations and I would sue gossip/shock site (and others) LiveLeak for those pictures.

    At the grocery store newsstand there's the so-called story that Ben and Jen are back together and then some try to pin the mistress to Tom Brady, and that Ben and Tom have all types of secrets with women that normally traps many famous, good looking men with money. People want to believe the worst and at this point in deflategate, and now nannygate, there will be crazy, fame seeking women who say they were with Tom Brady or they are his "girlfriend". As of now there's no real evidence on tampering will footballs, and there's no evidence of Tom sleeping around, but I am sure all allegations, proven or not, will come out in what can be one of the most high profile celebrity divorces of the year. It will be played like Tiger Woods all over again.

    How do we get from this (http://nesn.com/2015/08/browns-joe-thomas-deflategate-a-witch-hunt-tom-brady-not-a-cheater/) to where we are now with too much attention to cheating, divorcing supermodels, and alleged mistresses?

    If Tom Brady did cheat, the sports press should only report on that. Being that this much time has passed without solid evidence or others in this conspiracy speaking out in confessions, it likely didn't happen the way the press reports. But what happens in his personal life, girlfriend or not, divorce or not, supermodel wife or not, and friendship with Affleck, should not be something the sports press should dwell on. It has absolutely nothing to do with sports.
     
  6. ThinkDifferent24 macrumors member

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    #6
    For me, I just don't know the whole story so it can go either way. That gives me the peace of mind I need to continue watching. Sounds like a cop out but it makes sense to me :)
     
  7. Scepticalscribe Contributor

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    #7
    Well, cough, clears throat: Does the answer "Maybe we could ask - or, even aspire to the insane and surreal expectation that sports - irrespective of how highly paid some stars are, or how much money they make - or their paymasters make - or blithely averting ones myopic eyes from whatever massive turnover they currently enjoy - consider that they might occasionally conform to the law….."? make any sense in this context?
     
  8. NastyComputers macrumors regular

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    #8
    One way to make it all go away....continue to WIN. Although being a fan of a different AFC team I hope he chokes!
     
  9. HoiPiet macrumors member

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    #9
    Lots of people cheat in lots of ways. I don't doubt that there are a variety of ways that Bellichek cheated and cheats that aren't known. I think Deflategate is real, but you're exaggerating the effect on fans and history.

    The media coverage hasn't been that extreme.

    The NFL has used Ari Fleischer in the past and likely still does as does at least one team I'm aware of. It can be as rough and tumble as it gets.
     
  10. AustinIllini macrumors demi-god

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    #10
    I don't think you understand. Deflating a football is like carrying a basketball. No one cares.

    Do you understand the difference between Pete Rose and the Black Sox vs Tom Brady?

    Pete Rose bet on baseball. He directly affected that which he bet on. If he bet against his team, he has broken the most sacred rules of sports and gamesmanship.

    The Black Sox intentionally lost World Series games. They THREW the World Series and it was blatantly obvious as they did it.

    Tom Brady didn't throw any games, won the Super Bowl, and bent a stupid rule to win games.

    You get over it. It's over.

    Greg Hardy is going to play week five. He threw his wife onto a pile of his firearms. You're mad about Tom Brady? What is this thread even for?
     
  11. Scepticalscribe Contributor

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    #11
    Well, I think the thread title is a bit excessive - 'how do you right yourself?' - if you take the view (as I do) that there are far greater and more pressing problems in the world.

    And, as a European, I don't know the first thing about American football, so I cannot comment on that with any degree of authority.

    Nevertheless, the topic of illegal actions in sport - and the subordination of everything else to the competitive desire to win - made worse if the sport in question is lucrative - is a matter for a thread and could make for a rather interesting discussion.
     
  12. Tomorrow macrumors 604

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    #12
    I couldn't agree less. Even Joe Montana said his team cheated back in the day, and he doesn't see that (or deflategate) as a big deal.
     
  13. AustinIllini macrumors demi-god

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    #13
    4 Super Bowls. One of the greatest of all time. And I HATE the Patriots and I hate defending them, but we need to be realistic.
     
  14. Silencio macrumors 68020

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    #14
    Terry Bradshaw was, in retrospect, a very average quarterback who happened to play on one of the best teams of all time.

    The 49ers offensive lines in the 1980s were notorious for using every rule-bending trick they could think of to gain a competitive advantage.

    Pete Rose committed the greatest possible sin in baseball: he placed bets on games his own team was involved in. With 1919 being such a make or break scandal for the sport, it's no wonder he's not in the Hall of Fame, nor does he deserve to be. The steroid takers will be forgiven before Rose is.
     
  15. AustinIllini macrumors demi-god

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    #15
    Bradshaw was one of the worst Super Bowl winning quarterbacks, with the two worst being Trent Dilfer and Joe Namath.
     
  16. NastyComputers macrumors regular

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    #16
    Rule bending isn't rule breaking right?! What would those oline do exactly to gain that advantage?
     
  17. HoiPiet macrumors member

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    #17
    Lots of people care about the air pressure in a football. The lasting media image will be shaped more by the reactions than by the event. But its nothing like the Sox scandal, Pete Rose or even the Saints deliberately injuring opponents.
     
  18. Huntn macrumors G5

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    #18
    Easy ;)
    *Stop the drugs, gambling, and drinking.
    *Stop getting into socially compromising situations.
    *Be faithful to your spouse.
    *Avoid illegal activities.
    *Stop cheating in your profession.
    *Tell the public and your team's fans what an idiot you are and will never do ___ again.
    *Be seen going to church a lot.
     
  19. Silencio macrumors 68020

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    #19
    Their first Super Bowl winning team featured mostly smaller, more nimble offensive linemen who were schooled in blocking below the waist. Chop-blocking was already against the rules, but they were masters at pushing the envelope. A lot of their tactics from the time are now against the rules. Not that that team's line was completely without talent — Randy Cross ought to be in the Hall of Fame.
     
  20. bradl macrumors 68040

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    #20
    Going back to the original post about how one rights themselves after a scandal..

    I would say that it all depends on how far reaching the scandal is. With that, let's head down under.

    Year is 2002. The North Melbourne football club in the Australian Football League are going along at a good clip, until about 5 - 8 weeks into their 26-week season. At a team sponsored event, the captain of the side wsa caught in a rather precarious (term used loosely) position with a teammate's wife. This scandal not only lead to him taking the entire year off, exiling himself from the club, but hoping that to continue his career, another team would see enough in him to offer a trade for him or pick him up in the draft; either route hard, because he was getting towards the end of his career.

    Another team picked him up, but when he played against his old side, there definitely were emotions involved, and none of them pleasant. He still hasn't made up to that teammate, nor the teammate who caught him (at least to the public's knowledge).

    Fast forward to last year, when the Essendon football team was embroiled in a scandal involving drug supplements given to the team the pre-season prior. One of their players was worried about what was being given to them, was injected, so he came out about it. The scandal eventually took its toll on the team, any person who was a member of the team at that time, the coach, the person who supplied the supplements, and anyone else involved. Affected players at the team who didn't take those supplements were offered free or reduced fees for being traded due to it. Throughout the year, they were subpoenaed to the country's sporting anti-doping association, where eventually they were cleared; but that case was then appealed to WADA (the same anti-doping association that nailed Lance Armstrong, Floyd Landis, and others on the Tour de France), where it stands now. in the meantime, as of 2 weeks ago, the coach was finally sacked, while the person who offered the supplements received a lifetime ban from the sport at any level (national, state, local, youth).

    It's sad, because the coach of the club also played for that club, won 2 championships there, multiple club MVP, and league MVP.

    How do you come back from that? Well, in the North Melbourne case, after that guy played for 2 years in Adelaide, he took a year off, went into commentating, left that, took another 6 years to figure out his place, returned to commentating, and has been one of the best analysts in the sport; like a Frank Giffords. Not sure what's going to happen with the Essendon scandal, though I will say that it would involve taking time away from not only the club, but the sport. The dark mark will always be there, but this is where a person's character is tested.

    Same goes for Tom Brady. This is his dark mark. Fighting it the way he has isn't going to win him anything except more disdain and disgust from those that he plays against as well as the fans of those teams. He's going to be marked as the bad guy until he does the right thing (whatever that thing may be). Right now, that tale is yet to be told, but righting himself? Maybe some time off, and do nothing but concentrate on his game, no matter how much fans or the media want to bring Deflategate back to the front.

    BL.
     
  21. 63dot, Aug 27, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2015

    63dot thread starter macrumors 603

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    #21
    I guess in context, even though the naysayers of Brady are fresh and all over the internet, it's not such a big deal with deflategate. A year from now, or several years, we may see all the deflategate cheating allegations fade or it may stick like Pete Rose. There's no way to tell and at the time many thought the Pete Rose thing was totally no big deal but somehow it ended up being big.

    While I am a 49ers fan, I remember all the cheating allegations on the Niners. I know they were tough and I liked that they were my team, but they were said to be the biggest offender of illegal blocking back in the day. Cheapshots, dirty and injurious play, often associated with the Raiders across the bay in the 1970s, was the way of the 80s/90s in San Francisco. These types of blocking common then would be called out much more today and it really makes me wonder about the dynasty we had.

    I could say it was a different sport and thus OK but I can't really defend it other than saying if other teams did it, too but under the radar, shame on them also. That the 49ers got 5 SBs in 14 years can be why people paid attention to illegal football moves and I hope these practices weren't most often done by San Francisco. Like I said before it's hard enough, and indefensible that Barry Bonds got the season HR record while doped up and to me it took away the greatness of the feat. When I see a Bonds jersey, and they are still around everywhere, I get mixed feelings of both incredible pride (Barry years and records) but shame (Balco scandal). But some SF fans are OK with the doping/cheating and would love to see somebody dope up and break some records as long as it was somebody in a Giants or Niners uniform. Part of what makes the sports interesting is that there's a huge diversity of fans and while I may most like the finesse of Joe Montana and how easy he made the QB position look, and Tim Lincecum's freakish pitching and what they stood for, other SF area fans love that our football team put the most opponents in stretchers/disabled list during our rough and tumble days, or smash the most home runs as during Bonds time. Like one Giants fan told me, a new team member can be an all out criminal but the second they put on the uniform, all is forgiven. I don't know if it's just here, because we have had so much sports success in the Bay Area, or if all is forgiven everywhere when a person dons the home team uniform.

    I think it's safe to say if our Raiders/Niners/A's/Giants didn't have so many darn titles that cheating and cheap shots would not so easily be tolerated. There's almost a mentality that if it works and nobody says anything, then damn the rules. Winning brings a lot of forgiveness and looking the other way and when there was talk of the super hated LeBron James leaving Cleveland and coming to the Warriors, we were more than happy to open our arms and say how great he has always been.
     
  22. satcomer macrumors 603

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    #22
    You all should have been young adults during the MLB Strike. Many of us older people dropped MLB baseball after that! Only Cal Ripken's run hokd any water for a lot of people at the time. Then MLB blew my faith again during all the steroids scandels!

    I now just go to AAA ball parks, it's even cheaper for a great night out durring the summer/early fall.
     
  23. NastyComputers macrumors regular

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    #23
    Blocking someone below the waist and a chop block are to different concepts. And I'm pretty sure that at any level of football you can block below the waist (cut block). For whatever reason cut blocks are considered "dirty" but are completely legal! A chop block is illegal most of the time and is completely dangerous to the knees! And I agree Randy Cross is one of the best linemen of all time.
     
  24. Silencio macrumors 68020

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    #24
    Randy Cross was one of the nicest athletes I ever met. He really was happy to be recognized in public — that Miller Lite commercial he did later was no joke.

    I do have conflicted feelings about Bonds, as a Giants fan and as someone who followed him back to his high school days. Steroids or no, he was the best hitter I ever saw, or ever will see. Right up there in the pantheon alongside Williams and Ruth IMO.

    I honestly don't have a dog in the Tom Brady hunt. I stopped caring about the NFL a long time ago — pretty much when Steve Young suffered his last concussion.
     
  25. 63dot, Aug 28, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2015

    63dot thread starter macrumors 603

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    #25
    I hope Pete Rose gets inducted into the Hall of Fame and that deflategate gets forgotten but I don't have a crystal ball.

    Anyway, let's bring people employing bodily contact on opposing team base runners. ;)

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/weekinreview/16weber.html?_r=0

    Man, John McGraw! Somebody needs to make a movie about him. You have him, Barry Bonds, and 2010s batting hero Melky Cabrera which definitely helped put San Francisco in position to hit postseason. What the f*** is up with my Giants? I often talk about cheating in sports and as much as I don't like cheaters from other teams, I have to admit those Giants have the highest profile cheaters of any sport, unfortunately. Anyway, for John McGraw and a movie I would love to make it kind of tongue in cheek, exaggerate it of course, and get Bill Murray to play the part.

    You may not stop cheating in sports but I think greatly adding to the penalties, right then and there, and after, should help. Let's say a batter dopes, then ban him for the rest of the season no pay. Let's say a defender puts an obviously cheap shot on a QB. I would take him out of the game and ban him for half the season, etc. Really blatant pass interference should be met with a stronger penalty. We need to have teams play by some enforced rules and only have the talent of lack of, determine the outcome. They should be out there to play the sport in the most honorable way possible.

    That being said, I don't give a flying f about their personal lives. If a man is a wife/girlfriend beater, let the cops/court deal with that and if that makes the player lose playing time, then oh well. The commissioner of the sport should not be judge and jury on activities outside the sport.
     

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