How far should Meuller go?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Rhonindk, Aug 7, 2017.

?

Should Mueller be allowed to go as far as he wants in the "Russia" Investigation?

  1. NO. He needs to stick to the topic

    5 vote(s)
    10.0%
  2. Yes. If he thinks something exists he should be able to pursue it

    44 vote(s)
    88.0%
  3. Not sure.

    1 vote(s)
    2.0%
  1. Rhonindk macrumors 68020

    Rhonindk

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Location:
    Bloom County: Meadow Party
    #1
    Watched the interview on FOX with Rosenstein and found it enlightening and concerning. It was interesting and well done in my opinion.

    A couple of things that came out regarded leaks and Mueller. One aspect which I found a bit unclear prior to the interview was how far can Mueller go in his investigation. The basic rhetoric was he can go as far as he want. Yet in the interview Rosentein indicated that this was limited.
    Good opinion piece from ... CNN. (ARTICLE) and others (ARTICLE)

    That brought up the question in my mind: Should Mueller be allowed to go as far as he wants?
     
  2. Rhonindk thread starter macrumors 68020

    Rhonindk

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Location:
    Bloom County: Meadow Party
    #3
    So if Mueller runs across a document that shows potential issue with a Trump Development .. say LA Resort (LINK) he should be able to pursue it?

    Or should he just note it, hand it off, and continue on with the Russia task?

    Yes, I am using this as an "out there" example? ;)
    btw - the place is really nice.
     
  3. steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    #4
    All the way up trumps ass till he sees the true trump.
     
  4. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Location:
    Criminal Mexi Midget
    #5
    Yes he should
     
  5. darksithpro macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2016
    #6
    Slow news day? Trying to keep the Russia thing hyped?
     
  6. localoid macrumors 68020

    localoid

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Location:
    America's Third World
    #7
    Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein’s order empowered Mueller to prosecute federal crimes if he believes it is "appropriate and necessary." It's a broad mandate. Although Rosenstein had the power to restrict Mueller significantly, for the moment at least, he has given Mueller the full power allowed by the special counsel statute.
     
  7. noekozz macrumors 6502a

    noekozz

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Location:
    212/201
    #8
    Don't you have a bunker to go stock up for the impending snowflake apocalypse?

    Back OT I saw the same interview. It was interesting and he gave very good answer, he was also very careful with his words as to not spin things. It seems that he's giving Mueller his space to do what He needs to do, you have to respect that part at least.
     
  8. colourfastt macrumors 6502a

    colourfastt

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2009
    #9
    I look at it like Watergate; Watergate was just a break-in until they started following the money. Mueller needs to follow the money.
     
  9. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2008
    Location:
    The Far Horizon
    #10
    Agreed.

    I was about to phrase it as something on the lines of: "All the way into the next life, and then the one after that, followed by the one after that again until after the end of time," but it struck me that this might be regarded as too broad a mandate in the circumstances.

    Exactly.
     
  10. nia820 macrumors 68000

    nia820

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    #11
    As far as he needs to go to find some answers and bring any wrong doers to justice. POTUS and his admin aren't above the law.
     
  11. linuxcooldude macrumors 68020

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2010
    #12
    Whitewater was a land deal, but ended up with a dress and a cigar.
     
  12. Rhonindk thread starter macrumors 68020

    Rhonindk

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Location:
    Bloom County: Meadow Party
    #13
    Mueller is a Special not an Independent. His scope is as defined by Rosenstein and defined to Russia and now Comey. If he finds information beyond that he has to get additional permission to pursue. Broad but limited.
     
  13. oneMadRssn macrumors 68040

    oneMadRssn

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2011
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    #14
    Do you have an original source cite for this? (e.g., something from a .gov website, not a news website). Not trying to call you on it, I'm just having trouble finding the actual order to authorization to Mueller?
     
  14. Gutwrench macrumors 65816

    Gutwrench

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2011
    #15
  15. oneMadRssn macrumors 68040

    oneMadRssn

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2011
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    #16
    Nevermind - ignore above.

    https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3726381/Robert-Mueller-Special-Counsel-Russia.pdf (EDIT: Thanks @Gutwrench for the link)
    (b) The Special Counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confirmed by then-FBI Director James 8. Corney in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence on March 20, 2017, including:
    (i) any links and/or coordination bet ween the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and
    (ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and
    (iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a).
    And for good measure, 28 CFR 600.4(a) says:
    (a)Original jurisdiction. The jurisdiction of a Special Counsel shall be established by the Attorney General. The Special Counsel will be provided with a specific factual statement of the matter to be investigated. The jurisdiction of a Special Counsel shall also include the authority to investigate and prosecute federal crimes committed in the course of, and with intent to interfere with, the Special Counsel's investigation, such as perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and intimidation of witnesses; and to conduct appeals arising out of the matter being investigated and/or prosecuted.

    So it sounds like Mueller is not limited to just Russia and Comey, and in fact the scope of his investigation can be quite broad and he has a lot of discretion.
     
  16. noekozz macrumors 6502a

    noekozz

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Location:
    212/201
    #17
    For someone so guarded about his business finances and transactions, I know Trump is hating Mueller right now. I'm pretty sure he's gathering with his advisers and attorneys to see what viable option he has to get rid of him.
     
  17. Rhonindk, Aug 7, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017

    Rhonindk thread starter macrumors 68020

    Rhonindk

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Location:
    Bloom County: Meadow Party
    #18
    Handy? No. I remember there was a bit of a debate amongst Washington and media when originally appointed and what the difference was and why Counsel was a better fit. Special Counsel vs. Special Prosecutor vs. Independent Counsel
    I can look and see what comes up.
    --- Post Merged, Aug 7, 2017 ---
    He isn't limited except by permission from the DOJ - aka Rosenstein. He does not have carte blanche to just run nilly-willy. His scope is limited.

    Check down into this article where Rosenstein defines the scope of Mueller's investigation. (ARTICLE)
     
  18. AlliFlowers Contributor

    AlliFlowers

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Location:
    L.A. (Lower Alabama)
    #19
    This is all you need to know. It doesn't matter where they start. If there's any wrongdoing, they're going to find it.
     
  19. Rhonindk thread starter macrumors 68020

    Rhonindk

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Location:
    Bloom County: Meadow Party
    #20
    Doing some further reading on this, I ran across this article with some great video and other links that does a decent job on why limits are needed and what they currently are. (ARTICLE)
     
  20. rjohnstone macrumors 68040

    rjohnstone

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Location:
    PHX, AZ.
    #21
    Re read your bolded section. The "and" in 28CFR 600.4 has meaning.
    in the course of, and with intent to interfere with, the Special Counsel's investigation,

    He doesn't have a free run. He can only pursue additional investigations of federal crimes if they are done with the intent to interfere with the current investigation.

    What also limits him is this section.
    (ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation;

    This limits him from going on fishing expeditions. Matters unrelated to the investigation are not in scope.

    Nothing is preventing him from referring any criminal acts discovered during this investigation that are outside the scope of the investigation to the DOJ for further scrutiny.
     
  21. oneMadRssn macrumors 68040

    oneMadRssn

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2011
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    #22
    Secondary sources are worthless for this, it doesn't matter what some article says. Look at the original source, Rosenstein's order: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3726381/Robert-Mueller-Special-Counsel-Russia.pdf

    This is a legally binding order. Unless and until Rosenstein amends this order, this order is what defines Mueller's scope, and it is pretty broad. Not carte blanche, but certainly much broader than just the Russia thing.
    --- Post Merged, Aug 7, 2017 ---
    I don't think clause (ii) limits clause (iii) in the order. That doesn't make sense, because then clause (ii) would completely eat and subsume clause (iii). In other words, the term "any other matters" would be meaningless. That goes against basic cannons of interpretation.

    I agree it seems he is limited to crimes with elements of intent. But that is still pretty broad. Indeed, the list of examples given is broad: "such as perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and intimidation of witnesses"

    He certainly can't go on fishing expeditions - any requests he makes must be relevant to this order. But this order is broad - broader than just links from Russia to Trump.
     
  22. rjohnstone macrumors 68040

    rjohnstone

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Location:
    PHX, AZ.
    #23
    Not necessarily. The scope of Clause (iii) is defined in 28CFR
    , which itself limits it to the investigation at hand and acts that are committed with the intent to interfere with the defined investigation.

    I actually think clause (ii) is the broader of the two. Clause (iii) refers to illegal acts of interference with the immediate investigation, where (ii) allows for investigation into direct acts the arise from the investigation defined in clause (i).

    A bit circular in legalease, but I can see the intent.

    True.
     
  23. Rhonindk, Aug 7, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017

    Rhonindk thread starter macrumors 68020

    Rhonindk

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Location:
    Bloom County: Meadow Party
    #24
    Yes and no. It is Rosenstein who sets the limits for this and those are his words. His words do not grant Mueller unlimited access. To assume it does is dangerous.

    https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/967231/download
    Also looked at 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a). but that is also limited.

    I think the opposite of what you are suggested is warranted: the ability to blindly pursue in all fashions for all items.

    That would be a witch hunt and would likely create a constitutional crisis. No person who has ever served nor likely to serve would be able to survive such an investigation. Nor any Congressperson.
     
  24. oneMadRssn macrumors 68040

    oneMadRssn

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2011
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    #25
    When did I ever say Mueller has unlimited access?

    His access is limited to the scope defined in Rosenstein's order. It just so happens that Rosenstein's order much broader than just the Russia investigation.
     

Share This Page