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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Pinto, Nov 2, 2003.
This commentary seems spot-on to me.
if US citizens weren't so blinded by fear, they'd likely come to feel the same way.
the administration's agenda-pushing is so bloody transparent, it floors me that some people can't see right through it.
willful ignorance? paralyzed by fear? unwillingness to admit they're wrong?
-Believing the media..?
but the stuff's out there, if people are willing to look. heck, they can come to the MR politics section and get a pretty good smattering of articles about things that don't always make the 10 o'clock news.
when one compares the neocon beliefs, as self-stated, to how the administration runs its foreign policy, then compares the treatment of specific businesses and industries to campaign contributions and personal relationships, it's nigh well impossible to not draw some rather unsavory conclusions.
the information _is_ out there. and the rest of the world sees it pretty plainly.
This is one of those "It seems to me..." deals:
We've lost the ability to differentiate between efforts like WW II and Korea (and Vietnam) and some of the other Cold War hostilities, and "nit-picky" things like Panama, the Balkans and Somalia. Somehow we've come to believe we should "extend democracy" into countries where there seems to be no understanding of fair play and equal rights and all that. The "one man, one vote, one time" places.
Various governments around the world have been evil or badnasty or genocidal to the "citizens" within their boundaries. Most of Africa; much of the middle east...
Some of us who are conservative on many issues have long questioned why it is appropriate for us to do more than lead by example, that example being mostly confined to our actions here at home.
It's ironic to me that in the 1980 presidential campaign, the Democrats were against the role of GloboRoboCop. Then came Clinton and the Balkans where we indeed took on that role. Now, with Gulf Wars I & II, the issue of GRC has arisen once again.
I gotta admit I get a bit fed up with expediency and short-term views of foreign policy and all that.
I dunno. You have the internecine warfare in places like Ethiopia/Somalia or Chad. You have guys like Saddam, happily killing whomever displeases him, whether individuals or groups like the Kurds. Why is it somehow up to us to redress all wrongs?
This doesn't mean I object to killing off dictators where a national interest is involved, like oil. But, that's really only "okay" if there is a threat to our supply of oil. If Mr. Badnasty is selling at the world price, why should we really care how he abuses the citizenry?
Nuff for now. Note I've stayed away from "terrorism".
Absolutely. But how many actually dig? - even a little.
Moost, I find, prefer to believe the media, and leave it there.
I also note you find the democratic switch ironic, but there is no mention of the (recent) Republican switch on the same issue.
I seem to recall something from the 2000 campaign about a promise to not engage in "nation-building", that we didn't need to be the GRC. Also something about humility in our foreign relations, a new tone in government, and a promise to be "a uniter, not a divider". Perhaps you could refresh my memory about who said those things....
which is why we're doomed
We have an obligation to stop the sytematic eradication of an entire race or ethnic group.
We have an obligation to protect our citizenry from foreign attack in their homeland.
Beyond that, no matter how nasty the dictator is to his people or what he's done to your daddy or how much oil he's sitting on, there is no justification for waging war.
So, pseudobrit, what would you call Saddam's efforts against the Kurds?
I should clarify.
Before the war, checked.
Listening to you, one wonders if you're talking about the US or some fantasy country.
Could you explain to me how you helped "extend democracy" into Chile with Pinochet, or into Iran with the Shah.
Does leading by example include supporting Saddam against Iran or arming and training the Mujahadeem (sp?).
Of course, because by supporting their dicators and terrorists, we help our interests, which means our democracy is extended to us even more. See? It's wonderful. Now go do something for (our) democracy or you're next.
You forgot putting Saddam there in the first place.
Also forgot telling Saddam it would be ok to invade Kuwait...............so the US had a good reason to set up a friendly dictatorship in Kuwait
Back on topic.
I don't think it's the US that has a real bad image, more like the people governing it and their unbelivably short sighted foreign politics... I mean is bombing muslim countries left, right and center the best way to stop terrorism? Sounds to me like it's the best way to encourrage it.
Pinto, the U.S. is not really a place; it's an idea. It is an idea which has never been realized, and probably never will be. That doesn't mean folks should quit trying.
We've never had a Beaver Cleaver world, here, and never will--but that doesn't mean it would be a bad thing...
For whatever reason, we air our squabbbles, here, more than any other country. I note that this has long puzzled many foreign observers. Well, too bad; that's us, and it's what we do. Our arguments are much less about WHAT to do; they have to do with HOW to do. Liberal or conservative or purple with yellow polia dots, the primary issue here is how to have, overall, a good life for as many as possible.
All this is of course separate and distinct from what our foreign policy wonks have led us to, over the years...However, even those folks don't operate from a viewpoint of hatred or total disdain for others.
Schizophrenia run rampant? What can I say? All of us do the best we can with what our own life's experiences have shown us.
Me? I guess I'm still a sorta romantic idealist, just like I've always been.
'Rat, I think the problem is the "Eddie Haskells" have taken over!
Don't let the ladies hear you say that...
Now, mac, if a lady wants to stay home and do the housewife thing, wouldn't it be nice if it only took one wage-earner to make it possible?
And if that lady prefers to go for Chairman of the Board of El Biggie, Inc., hey, she oughta be free to do so!
How egalitarian of you 'Rat! So nice of you to permit the ladies to have a choice.
But yes, it would be nice if a one-earner home could suffice these days. Perhaps private industry has a solution to this problem?
This finally explains your disconnection with reality
I think It's naive to say that America does something or to be Anti-American. You just end up catagorizing all Americans a certin way. The government does the decision making for Americans. Americans don't have much of a say besides "elections" and everyone knows what those are like. When people protest things like war in some other countries they usually take an Anti-American stance. How can they be against all Americans though if many In this country feel the same way they do? People need to realize that the administration is who they disagree with not the people, well not most anyway.
America culture is portrayed by it's foreign policy and it's television programs.
we don't get to see much else over here.
Pinto, striving toward an ideal is the way I was raised. I've always tried to make my own little chunk of world a better place, wherever I was. As to politics, I've tried to support candidates who would at least head in a better-place direction, which might explain some of my cynicism.
And I've been close enough to reality that I have only had the mandates of courtesy and politeness to say "Sir" to anybody since 1977. I've never been wealthy, but I've been independently not-broke, doing what I want, when I want, and getting out of bed when it suits me.
One thing for AnZacs is that we had a pretty good cooperative effort to keep y'all from having to learn Japanese...Most of us Yanks are still that sort of folks...
The goodwill generated 60 years ago can't be expected to last forever. Forgiving the sins of the sons, for the Sainthood of the Fathers?
WWII was a cooperative effort. The ANZACs, Yanks, Indians, British etc were defending each others and well as there own interests, don't make it sound like you were coming to our aid through your own good heart. Where would America be today if Japan controlled the Pacific and the Nazis Europe?
As far as getting out of bed when it suits, now that I can respect.