How to secure America's southern border?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by G51989, Jul 1, 2014.

  1. G51989, Jul 1, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014

    G51989 macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #1
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/number-of-children-crossing-alone-from-mexico-into-u-s-surges/


    So, we have always had a problem with illegal immigration on the southern border of the US of A.

    Recently as we all know, its gotten a lot worse.

    This huge stem of people flowing into America is not sustainable, America as a country cannot afford it, and we cannot sustain doing this any longer.

    The border needs to be secured. People need to stop coming in ways like this.

    Now, I am a registered independent. And I by American standards, I swing pretty far to the left.

    But I feel I might be swinging to the right here.

    I understand the illegals who are already here, deporting them is not an option. We have to many of them.

    What can do?

    Lock down the border, and I think I have the way to do it.

    America has a giant overbloated over funded military. I don't think that will change.

    So instead of starting unsustainable wars, lets put that giant Military to use, deploy it along the border with Mexico.

    I am talking giant steel and concrete walls, minefields, sniper towers, electric fences, moats, patrols, M1 tanks patrolling, air patrols, all that stuff.

    Have very clear signage along the border, telling people trying to come illegally, that if they cross that whatever line, lethal force will be used.

    And we can use the Coast Guard and US navy to stop people crossing into America by the sea to.

    I know its not a very humane idea, but I think its the only way to stop the flow.

    What would you do to lock down the border?

    Lets be honest, it needs to be completely sealed.

    Also I am all for legal immigration, but the millions flowing into America from South and Central America, we just can't have it. We can't afford it, and its not sustainable.
     
  2. localoid macrumors 68020

    localoid

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    #2
    If we built a replica of the Berlin Wall, we might be able to monetize it via a theme park. We'd just need a catchy name for it... a little bit of guerrilla marketing... etc.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. bradl macrumors 68040

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    #3
    From a certain plaque sitting on a certain statue on some island in big major east coast city:

    This country wasn't built on the privileged few being able to make it over here, otherwise there would be a ton of people who could/should be sent back across the pond to Europe; like Jack White said, "you can't be the pimp and the prostitute, too."

    What we need to do is get everyone off their partisan arses, sit down together, and actually work out what we can do, and be reasonable about it. Until then, this is going to continue.

    Recall what Arnold said about "securing/closing" the borders, and the backlash he caught.

    BL.
     
  4. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #4
    ¡LOS GRINGOS PARED LOCOS!

    ...someone tell me if that's right. I speak Spanish like a brain damaged 4 year old.
     
  5. G51989 thread starter macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #5
    Yeah yeah, I know that by heart.

    But there is a big problem here, these are different times. This country cannot sustain the amount of people flowing over the border, it simply can't, its already 17 trillion in debt, with huge economic problems for people who already live here.

    How the hell can we take on more?
     
  6. Shrink macrumors G3

    Shrink

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    #6
    Let's say we totally seal the boarder. How much of that 17 trillion would be saved?

    Please be sure to support your answer with authoritative sourcing, not a guess.

    Thanks...
     
  7. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #7
    El efectivo es en el baño maria.
     
  8. Shrink macrumors G3

    Shrink

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    #8
    Sure...sure...easy for you to say!:confused:
     
  9. G51989 thread starter macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #9
    The debt is not the point

    The point is, we already have a lack of employment and jobs as it is.

    Would importing even more people fix anything?

    Or would it just further depress wages?
     
  10. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #10
    We're not taking on more. Immigration from Mexico is net zero.

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/04/24/study-mexican-immigration-hits-net-zero/
     
  11. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #11
    Si. Te llamo es fuego pollo.

    But on a serious note. We're faced with a problem that has absolutely no right or easy answer. The only way to approach it would be to consider which is more cost effective: building and militarizing a 2000 mile wall, or just letting them in and seeing what happens.

    Of the two, I'd say the latter would likely be cheaper.
     
  12. localoid macrumors 68020

    localoid

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    #12
    As I said, monetize it as a theme park!

    Finding people willing to pay a small sum to man a guard tower with a real, loaded weapon for a hour at a time wouldn't be that difficult in America would it? And the whole family could enjoy the "It's a Walled, Walled World" ride, with its cast of animatronics aliens, gringos, etc. singing the "It's a Walled World After All."

    Just pause and think of the money-making possibilities! Selling butter deep-fried in lard on a stick, etc.
     
  13. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #13
    That'd cost even more money! To meet up to amusement park standards, you have to set up bathrooms ever 500 feet. Which would mean plumbing. Then you have to sell food and drinks, which means health inspections. Then you'd have to find someone who'll build all the rides, then get someone to maintain them, and you'd have to hire staff to take the tickets, handle security, clean up the park, and...

    ...wait...

    Localoid, you're a goddamn genius! THE MEXICANS CAN DO IT ALL!
     
  14. Shrink macrumors G3

    Shrink

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    #14
    And take away highly desirable and great paying jobs from Americans.:mad:

    What are you, some anti-American Commie or something. :mad:
     
  15. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #15
    I'm not sure I like these new emoticons. I don't know if you're telling me you're angry, or extremely constipated.

    But see, that's the beautiful thing about it! No one wants to babysit millions of rowdy kids hopped up on cotton candy and sugar water. Especially not after they've been riding the Tilt-A-Whirl for a couple hours straight. Let the Mexicans do it.

    They want citizenship? They have to spend 5 years staffing at LOS GRINGOS PARED LOCOS!

    Have you been talking to G51989 again? You know I think he's a bad influence on you.
     
  16. Shrink macrumors G3

    Shrink

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    #16
    Just as many of the jobs that illegal aliens take that are not exactly fought over by Americans...picking fruit, changing disgusting sheets in inexpensive hotels, washing dishes in second rate fast food joints...you mean like those jobs, right?

    He probably has, and I'd admit it if I had the slightest clue to whom you are referring!:confused:





    Constipation:eek:
     
  17. APlotdevice macrumors 68040

    APlotdevice

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    #17
    Instead of worrying about what to do, we should think about what to stop doing: We need to stop putting Mexican farmers out of a job with our heavily subsidized corn industry. We need to stop feeding the cartels with our war on drugs.
     
  18. Renzatic, Jul 1, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014

    Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #18
    Oh, I see you read through to the veiled message.

    Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. They're completely off the radar as far as the government is concerned, and business owners see them as cheap, tax-free labor. Their willingness to do the dirty work that a naturalized American citizen wouldn't even glance at for a fraction of the cost has actually helped strengthen some economies by considerable degrees.

    It costs us far more to track them down, process them, then send them home than it does to just ignore them and let them continue being exploited by unscrupulous people. In isolation, they cost us practically nothing, so long as we're willing to look the other way. They're far more a moral burden than they are a financial one.

    edit: So why are we in such a rush to kick them back out when they're apparently such a boon? Simple. Politics. They're convenient scapegoats, and make for great talking points during debates. The real question is why aren't we doing anything to keep them from being exploited? Because they are being exploited. There's no doubt about that. But if we naturalize them, business owners will be required to document and handle them the same way they would any US citizen, which means they're more of an expensive liability than they once were. At that point, they'll become a drain on the economy. They'll suddenly find themselves as an unskilled worker without a steady income, because the jobs that used to thrive on the availability of the cheap labor they provided will suddenly start drying up.

    So what do we do? What's the right answer here? That one quick and easy solution that makes everyone happy?

    ...if only things were so simple.

    ...and that smiley looks like the relief after. :p
     
  19. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #19
    Good to see that the "Visas or Death!" crowd has eaten another person's brainstem.

    I think Kevin Appleby of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops said it best, sealing the border "is akin to sending a child back into a burning building and locking the door.”

    The United States has poured billions into border security, including national guard and has intentionally pushed people into the outward deserts where at least 2,000 people have died of thirst and exposure in the Tucson Sector alone. Thousands more have been seriously and critically injured from falls, trips, vehicle traffic, etc. during their crossing into the United States. And, Border Patrol has killed 22 people, including Mexican teenagers while in Mexico. Not to mention serious accusations of abuse.

    So, you want to gin up this by putting the military on the border and you reasonably expect that military to prosecute military force against women and children as if they were vermin.

    This would be a war crime as evil and terrible as anything Assad or Hussein has done and the fact that you have proposed this idea as something reasonable tells us that something vast and cruel lies in your heart.

    Increasingly, Americans show that they have very little patience for humanity and righteous and will abandon it like an uncomfortable cloak, revealing the typical monster of rampant, abject nationalism.

    I'm not sure what happened.
     
  20. G51989 thread starter macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #20
    I am not promoting killing people.

    But the fact stands, should we just let in whomever because they decide to walk across?

    So now America is somehow responsible for all the refugees and all the problems in central America?

    Not so sound Morbid.

    But if they did not try to cross illegally, would they have been harmed or shot?

    No.

    And you think they should just walk right in and be citizens because they feel like it?

    Then how to we stop the flow of illegals?

    Have you a better idea?

    Or should we just let them walk in and do whatever they want? Illegally?

    I am typically aganist nationalism.

    But we have serious workforce problems in this country, and a lack of jobs as it is.

    How the hell do we take on more people?
     
  21. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #21
    The situation we have on our southern border at present is a humanitarian crisis, brought about by an unfortunate combination of events. It is in no way a military problem, and not one that threatens, in any meaningful way, the security of the United States or those states bordering Mexico.

    For that reason, deploying our military there will not solve the problem, and - by taking it away from its appropriate duties (training, deployment, etc.) will actually serve to weaken the United States.

    The problem is not that unaccompanied minors are getting through without getting caught - its that they are coming in the first place. They want to get caught - believing (mistakenly) that they will be given automatic refugee status in the US. They only military way of stopping them from coming would be to fire live rounds at them - in clear violation of both international law, and our border agreements with Mexico.
     
  22. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #22
    Yes you are, in fact you're advocating for the death warrant of anyone in the borderlands. Think it through.

    Well, we could build more barriers, but that has yet to work and arguably, the best case scenario is after the US spends billions on fencing and sensor networks, people start using boats and that would require, in your plan, the sinking of those boats.

    I can't wait to see the bodies of Guatemalan children washing up on San Diego beach.

    Actually, yes. The US has been heavily involved in the governments of Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador. And, because of NAFTA we've cratered the farm economy of all three counties along with Mexico.

    Meanwhile, the world's biggest drug consumer continues to prosecute the war on drugs further distorting the economies of Central and South America along with Mexico.

    The law enforcement principles of Judge Dredd, judge and executioner from a Predator drone flying overhead. What could possibly go wrong?

    Wait till some jumpy kid in a M1A2 decides to fire a sabot round through a farmer's truck.

    All of the 54,000 unaccompanied minors who have entered the United States through the Rio Grande Valley are currently in deportation proceedings. Assuming they do not receive some kind of relief—typically given only through asylum claims—they will all be repatriated.

    I'd take all the money we spend on "border security" and focus on economic development for Mexico and Central America and shut down the war on drugs and I'd legalize marijuana and tax it.

    And, I would create a visa system for Central America to allow children with parents in the United States to come legally. I would pass a form of CIR without a border security competent, but spend our money on a fast-track visa system for people in the country already, focused on paying back taxes and fines and becoming legal residents, but not citizens. People who wanted to become citizens could apply, but would have to wait for those applying legally in Central America and Asia.


    Americans fail to provide the proper paperwork, but I don't see many advocating for killing people when they dodge their taxes.

    At worst, illegal immigrant labor drives down wages in some sub-sectors of the economy (this also keeps prices low). However, there's a great deal of evidence that people in the country illegally further economic activity and because they don't use social services, but pay for them, they actually help many state economies and fund the social services network asymmetrically.

    As for workforce, we have a lack of trained workers and keeping illegal immigrants out won't fix that particular problem.

    Frankly, if a 14-year old kid manages to get to the United States from Guatemala we should give that plucky bastard a medal and a free college education because that kid is tough and smart and worth more than the lazy gits who can't be expected to show up for class on time because they forget to set their alarm in a $300 smartphone.

    Rather than treating them as a plague to be blunted by violence, we should accept them as a powerful impetus to our economy and the future economies of the countries they've fled.
     
  23. G51989 thread starter macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #23
    I did, you act like there would not be very very clear warning. Of said zone.

    The fact is, we can't have millions of people just walking in and saying " I am in America, give me stuff ", because that is exactly what smugglers are telling these parents.

    I never said anything about sinking them, do what France and Italy tend to do, Escort them back to where they came from , under threat of Naval fire. It works really well.

    Then what do we do, just let half of Centeral and South America cmon up and do what they want?

    I am aware of that.

    However.

    WE should just let whoever wants to cross illegally in, and let them do what they want? Even tho thousands of people try to get in legally and wait years?

    Is that a message we should send ? " Come to America! Screw paperwork! your a citizen! now! "

    I think not.

    I 100% agree with that, its time for the war on drugs to end.

    Do you have a better way of securing the border?

    Or just leave it open for whomeever wants to come in?

    I do hope so, but knowing the current leadership, I could see that not happening.


    War on pot? yes, time to end, legalize it, and tax it, I cannot agree with you more.

    However, throwing money at South America and Centeral America, and Mexico?

    When America is literally coming apart at the seams?

    No, no money for them.

    Very good idea on paper, but do you think most of these people who are illegal already, and would somehow go on the fast track to citizenship?

    Even have money to pay back taxes? I would think not.

    Fair enough.

    Tho I often feel youth in America are not motivated because they know they have zero future anymore. They will simply be a corporate number.

    I understand they do take some jobs Americans won't.

    But at this point in time, America is not capable of caring for its own.

    Why would it be capable of taking even more people?
     
  24. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #24
    How big a zone? Would this zone extend into Mexico? Or, would you simply cleave away part of the United States to create a DMZ?

    First, the largest number of apprehensions by US CBP was in 2001 when 1.3 million people were caught crossing the border. FY 2013, that number was around 421,000. While everyone is having apoplexies over the number of unaccompanied minors, they're still just a chunk of the whole migrant population.

    Keep in mind that we've deported 2 million since 2008 and the number of people illegally in the country was dropping until this year.

    And, no one should build policy based on what smugglers say because the coyotes are liars, trying to herd their pollos across long distances and make a tidy profit.

    My interaction with family units is that people expect to be detained, but believe they will be allowed to stay and work. No one thinks they're going to get "stuff."

    Your original plan included the assumption that force would be used. And Lampedusa it's own humanitarian problem.

    No, I think we should follow our obligations and treaties by following our own jurisprudence and allow people to seek asylum and should they fail, be deported.

    This is histrionic slapdash thinking.

    Well, yeah. People are spending $5,000 - $7,000 to send their kid through Mexico under the watch of a cartel-loyal coyote. Undercut their cost by $2,000 and include a free plane ticket to Dallas Ft. Worth or O'Hare. You'd break the back of the smuggler's business model, save a bunch of kids from rape and murder in Mexico, and put together families in the United States.

    Require them to continue to work with ICE and EIOR. Meanwhile, use biometrics to keep the MS13 gang members home.

    Compared to kids who have just traveled a thousand miles for a chance, America's youth comes across as a bunch of sniveling brats. I say this not to bash the millennials, who've gotten the worst American deal in generations, but to elevate the kids and families who have come to the United States.

    We're going to spend $398.6 billion on a fighter plane we may never use and another $436 million on tanks the U.S. Army doesn't even want.

    We can't take care of our own for reasons that have very little to deal with illegal immigration and much to do with a corporatocracy that has succeeding in making billions by destroying the economies of our southern neighbors and then makes millions more building systems to keep them from coming here.
     
  25. G51989 thread starter macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #25
    Why not two miles of a no mans land with plenty of warnings to stay out?

    2 million? SOunds like we can do better.

    That is the problem, until real border secuirty is happening, the people down in Centeral America will think " cross over, surrender, citizen, free stuff "

    There needs to be some way to break that mindset.

    Well, if they would ignore the warnings to turn back.

    What do you do? Let them land?

    Honestly, that sounds great. But it is not the reality of the situation.

    Why should we open the floodgates?

    No, America's roads, bridges, schools, airports, seaports, power grid, water systems, sewage systems, and basic manufacturing are falling apart.

    I find all of these more important than immigrants from the south.

    That sounds great.

    lets address that after we figure out why 40% of America struggles to make rent and put food on the table.

    Not before.

    So just because they came from the third world.

    They should just be allowed in to do what they want? And due to programs like affirmative action, probably get a better chance to go go to college than the lazy spoiled American kids?

    I am not opposed to immigration, but this huge flood we see now seems to be a little bit much.

    Can't agree with you more.

    Can't agree with youmore.

    However, what may have happened in the past.

    We should just let them walk into America and do what they want?

    No offense, that is the message I get from you " Let them walk in, do what they want, come here illegally, and live the American dream " when many natural born Americans can't anymore.
     

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