"I can be an instrument of God...we can create a Kingdom right here on Earth."

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by nbs2, Oct 7, 2007.

  1. nbs2 macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #1
    This is the kind of statement I would have expected from a Republican pandering to the Christian conservatives, especially as some work to be more vocal about their faith in an effort to pull away from the pack.

    I didn't expect it to come from Obama, even if Clinton has been pushing her Christian values, and I certainly didn't expect this type of comment to be ignored by the PRSI.
     
  2. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #2
    This is just the type of commentary the social conservatives are complaining about. I do not have any issue with a candidate's religious views, as long as it does not interfere with their ability to acknowledge they have no influence on public policy.
     
  3. ham_man macrumors 68020

    ham_man

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    #3
    "Jesus explained, 'My kingship is not of this world; if my kingship was of this world, my servants would fight, that I might not be handed over to the Jews.'"

    John 18:36 NRSV
     
  4. adrianblaine macrumors 65816

    adrianblaine

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    #4
    I don't like the way he worded it, but if he is talking about trying to end injustice, war and suffering, then great. But like we've discussed recently, it still sounds like trying to win votes more than anything.
     
  5. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #5
    I agree. I'm sure he kinda means it, but it kinda comes off as pandering. Very poorly worded. I have a feeling it's going to turn off more people than it would attract, the type who probably wouldn't be voting for him due to his views on abortion and gay rights.
     
  6. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #6
    The link isn't working. Can you quote it for us?
     
  7. adrianblaine macrumors 65816

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    #7
    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/10/08/obama-gop-doesnt-own-faith-and-values/

    For some reason it looks like the link changed slightly, but just in case...

     
  8. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #8
    Ugh- wow. Maybe I didn't need to see that after all. Well, the evangelicals can pat themselves on the back. They've now managed to inject religion into everyone involved in politics.

    To solvs: color me officially turned off. I give up. We don't need an instrument of God. We need an instrument of the people.
     
  9. adrianblaine macrumors 65816

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    #9
    I guessing religion has always been involved, but lately it seems to be used for the wrong reasons. Ironic...
     
  10. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

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    #10
    Obama does this and then Clinton announces she's going to bring on Sandy Berger within her campaign.

    I told you this was going to be an interesting campaign.
     
  11. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #11
    I'm guessing this is just the beginning of what looks to be a very steep downward spiral. Keep going Dems! If anybody can find a way to lose a surefire win, it's you guys! :mad:
     
  12. kainjow Moderator emeritus

    kainjow

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    #12
    I guess I don't see what's so wrong about what he said? Doesn't he claim to be a Christian? Or not?

    Either way, I think he has a different view on a lot of things, which is refreshing. He's not my first choice, but if it comes down to him vs Giuliani/Romney/McCain, I will vote for him.
     
  13. nbs2 thread starter macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #13
    I don't think anybody has a problem with any candidate's religious affiliation. Let me rephrase that - I don't think anybody here has any problem with any candidate's religious affiliation. The concern, as lee so succinctly puts it, we need an instrument of the people.

    I support the idea of a leader with strong religious beliefs. Those who believe strongly have an exposed moral code that we can see. I can look at the belief structure of <insert candidate>'s religion, and I can see where he draws his lines. But, what I don't want is a leader that views himself as a prophet. Especially if he wants to establish the Kingdom through rule of law.

    If Obama wants to give up politics for the ministry, I'm all for letting him establish a Kingdom. Otherwise, he's no better than the nutters that want a mid-east war to hasten the apocalypse.
     
  14. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #14
    Exactly. Obama's going to get a nice long letter from me too.
     
  15. adrianblaine macrumors 65816

    adrianblaine

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    #15
    What kind of "kingdom" does everyone think he would try to establish? For one, I think he only said that to get their votes. Secondly, as I said earlier, the only "earthly" form of "kingdom" he could even attempt is to put an end to injustice, war and suffering (which anyone should be ok with...). Anything other than that would not be Christian.
     
  16. nbs2 thread starter macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #16
    If he only said that to get their votes, then he's no different than every other lying sack of crap politician and we might as well vote for someone less divisive and with more experience playing the game.

    As for what kind of "kingdom"? All those good things are subsumed in the kingdom, but the essence is that these would occur not by the choice and will of the people, but by force and the imposition of a given set of values. Essential to any discussion is a look at the general place of utterance. Had it been uttered at a mosque, the Muslim kingdom would have been appropriate; at a VFW hall, a political kingdom would be appropriate. This was a Christian church, and thus a Christian kingdom - formed and strengthened by Christian values - is appropriate.

    I'm all for a kingdom founded on Christian values. I personally believe that adherence to the principles laid down by Christ will draw us closer to God. I also believe that such a kingdom needs to be spiritual. Any movement from the spiritual to political begins to erode at the free agency that people have. The belief that the rights of one are inviolable until they encroach on another is essential, not only to democracy, but to religion as well. Do we have every right to share our political, religious, and other views with others, be it through a large campaign stop or door-to-door visits? Yes. Are those that threaten violence or verbally assault those who share their message so close-minded and no different than those that would impose values by force? Yes. Each person has the right to worship, believe, and value what they may, so long as others are not impeded in their exercise. And denial of the same is what "kingdom" has come to insinuate among the majority view of Christians and as a consequence, the majority view of America.
     
  17. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #17
    Huh? I'm sorry, that was a little confusing.
     
  18. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #18
    He's certainly lost my vote. Not that he ever had it, but what a completely idiotic play for the religious loony constituency.
     
  19. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #19
    Yeah- he's definitely out for me as well. This kind of pandering is ridiculous and unnecessary. The pundits are right, he's not ready to be President. From the looks of it, he never will be.
     
  20. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

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    #20
    I'm just wondering whether it's more of a play for the Southern church-going black vote; harking back to Martin Luther King... he's come in for criticism for not being 'black enough', whatever that means.
     
  21. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #21
    Whatever it is, I agree with nbs2 - possibly for the first time ever - that this kind of statement is incredibly divisive, unnecessary and open to misinterpretation.
     
  22. nbs2 thread starter macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #22
    Yeah, I figured I was rambling a little. Sort of venting my frustration with people that make comments like Obama's and the effect it has on the views people end up having of me as an individual.

    Anyway, I guess my point was that he may have wanted to refer to "kingdom" meaning a world of peace and happiness, but he used the term inside a Christian church. Every group that wants to share its beliefs has a differing definition of kingdom. If he had used the term in a mosque, synagogue, or VFW hall, the term could have been interpreted differently. But, it was used in an evangelical Christian setting. Perhaps adrian's definition is what is used in that church. But, this was a very public event. And the public view of an evangelical Christian "kingdom" is one of forced values and beliefs.

    The idea of forced values really bothers me. I guess where I got confusing earlier was that I was trying to say that as an individual, I believe that espousing Christian ideals would strengthen people. But, that is something for people to decide for themselves. Forcing people to abide by those ideals is no different than slavery.
     
  23. killerrobot macrumors 68020

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  24. PlaceofDis macrumors Core

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    #24
    indeed it is, and has me questioning if i'll continue to support him at all now.

    right now, no one has my vote. :\

    i'm trying to find a good candidate, one i can support and get behind.
     
  25. nbs2 thread starter macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #25
    :eek:

    I really like Obama's statement. It shows that he is a man who is willing to say whatever the audience needs to hear. There, now we can disagree again.;)

    Dis has a good point though. Candidates seem to be begging not to be voted for. Maybe I'll just write in George Washington. That way we can start over.
     

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