I Love The UK

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by wrkactjob, Aug 24, 2012.

  1. wrkactjob macrumors 65816


    Feb 29, 2008
    Police today in London coordinated Operation Fallon with ANPR technology to scan car number plates for suspected criminals.

    The operation was a success with one car to be discovered driving with false plates and in another car a suspected burglar was arrested, police also issued over 20 warnings for cannabis possession. Later police arrested a man travelling with a baseball bat.

    Meanwhile in New York....
  2. likemyorbs macrumors 68000


    Jul 20, 2008
    Cannabis possession and a baseball bat? The baseball bat one is the most confusing.
  3. Sydde macrumors 68020


    Aug 17, 2009
    In Jollye Olde, they have cricket bats. Anyone carrying a baseball bat is either a foreigner (shew your papers) or up to mischief.
  4. Happybunny macrumors 68000

    Sep 9, 2010

    Meanwhile in the free and Liberal Netherlands, there were no problems with people travelling with a baseball bat or cannabis.:D
  5. VulchR macrumors 68020


    Jun 8, 2009
    Where I live in Scotland, the big news in the crime section of the local paper is often somebody being caught with stolen golf clubs. :) However, there are occasionally fights (drunks), burglaries and sexual assaults. No matter where you go, people are people. It's just easier to manage them peacefully if they aren't packing machine guns.
  6. Happybunny, Aug 25, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2012

    Happybunny macrumors 68000

    Sep 9, 2010
    Meanwhile in the real world.

    A black teenager who says he has been stopped about 50 times by the Metropolitan police is planning to sue the force, claiming he has suffered almost four years of harassment and false charges, which he believes have been motivated by racism.

    Between the ages of 14 and 17, the college student says he has faced a series of charges of which he has either been found not guilty or which have been dropped before getting to court, as well as numerous stops and searches and two strip searches, none of which identified any criminal activity. He says he has also been detained several times in police cells after which he was released without charge.

    Last week the teenager appeared at Bromley youth court, south London, charged with assaulting a police officer. The case collapsed after CCTV footage contradicted the evidence in court of PC John Lovegrove, who claimed to have been assaulted by the youth during a stop and search.

    The Crown Prosecution Service has admitted it did not review the case fully before it went to court and is to apologise to the youth for allowing the case to go ahead.

    The Met police confirmed the acquittal but declined to comment further. However, it is understood concerns about this and other failed charges against the youth, and all the stops and searches, are being investigated by police.

    Lovegrove claimed the youth, who was handcuffed behind his back at the time and forced to the ground by police, rolled over and, in doing so, caused grazing and bruising to the officer's knuckles. The youth was also accused of spitting.

    However, the CCTV footage in court showed no evidence to support these claims.

    The youth's solicitor, James Foong, told the court: "He appears to me to be lying there like a dead fish."

    After the court was shown the CCTV footage the CPS offered no further evidence and the case collapsed.

    The youth had been stopped by police in Sidcup, south London, on 11 February this year, after reports on the police radio that a named white suspect had threatened his father with a knife and had then run off. The police description was later amended to black or mixed race male.

    Although no weapon or drugs were found on the youth, he remained handcuffed while the police forced him to the ground. He was then strip-searched at the police station. He had cigarette papers in his pocket and torn up cardboard that Lovegrove said could be used as a filter when smoking cannabis. No drugs were found during the strip search.

    The youth said: "I can't think of any other reason why the police keep doing this to me apart from racism. I've been stopped and searched so many times I've lost count, I think it's about 50 times."

    The Met police is 11 times more likely to stop and search black people than white ones, according to Equalities and Human Rights Commission research published earlier this year. It has accused the Met of racial profiling.

    "I'm very relieved my son was cleared of a crime he did not commit," said his mother.

    "If it wasn't for the CCTV footage, he probably would have been convicted on PC Lovegrove's evidence. But I can't relax because I don't know what the police are going to do next. I'm trying to move the family to a different area that will be safer for us. Because of the way my son is targeted by the police, I'm frightened to let him leave the house. I'm worried he will be arrested again and won't come back."

    She added: "I believe my son has been targeted because of police racism. He has been accused of so many things – theft of a laptop, theft of a bike, doing etchings on a wall inside McDonalds. He's also been accused of being part of the Cherry Gang and of harassing young children for drug money. He's never done any of these things."

    Lee Jasper, chair of the London Race and Criminal Justice Consortium said: "It is particularly shocking that this has been going on for such a long time and started when the boy was so young. This case exemplifies the harsh realities of being a black kid in London."

    A CPS spokesperson said: "This youth was charged by the police with assaulting a constable and our review of the case relied upon a summary of the evidence and other information provided by the police. At trial, it was found the evidence did not support the charge and we decided to offer no evidence against the defendant.

    "We fully accept we should have reviewed all of the evidence more thoroughly before the beginning of the trial."

    The CPS will apologise to the youth "for not doing so and for not discontinuing the case earlier".

    Foong said: "From what he has told me of his treatment and the evidence we have seen in court it would appear the police approach to this young man has been disproportionate and excessive."

    The Met police said in a statement: "On 17 August, a 17-year-old male appeared at Bromley youth court accused of assault of a police officer at Sidcup High Street on 11 February 2012 … The case was discontinued by CPS and the youth was formally acquitted."

  7. aziatiklover macrumors 68030


    Jul 12, 2011
    Location: and
    Warning on cannabis, yet arrested for carrying a baseball bat? Only in UK is that what you meant!
  8. charlieegan3 macrumors 68020


    Feb 16, 2012

    but when you say 'occasional fights' you mean like every night in every town?
  9. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502


    May 30, 2011
    Remember he's talking bout SCOTLAND !!!

  10. Eraserhead macrumors G4


    Nov 3, 2005
  11. Crazy Badger macrumors 65816

    Crazy Badger

    Apr 1, 2008
    They don't fight in Scotland, just kiss! It's just that a Glasgow Kiss isn't what you might be expecting :D

    As a regular visitor to the US and having lived there for a year I think main difference between us is guns. So many more people would die in the UK if firearms were legalised. Whilst you still might find trouble at the end of a night out in just about any UK city or town, the chances of someone pulling out a gun is almost none existent. In the US there is every chance.

    I remember one of my first visits to New York in the 90s and visiting a comedy club. At least two people where sat chatting and drinking with firearms sat in front of them on the table! Needless to say I didn't laugh much or stay very long!
  12. eric/ Guest


    Sep 19, 2011
    Ohio, United States
    Mmm gotta love that police state ;)
  13. charlieegan3 macrumors 68020


    Feb 16, 2012
    what do you mean? I live in Scotland too btw.
  14. wrkactjob thread starter macrumors 65816


    Feb 29, 2008
    Another big news story to have intrigued the nation currently consists of a "lion" seen strolling through the county of Essex.

    A digital photograph taken which seems of similar style to Monet's nature paintings of the later 19 century seems to show a lion with a vaugely human face.


    Some have suggested a likeness to the late Wizard of Oz Lion featuring the American actor Bert Lahr:


    Two police helicopters armed with thermal imaging equipment were used to trace the lion, together with 25 officers and a member of nearby Colchester zoo.

    However despite extensive searches taking place no further sightings of the lion had been noted.

    In other reports a young girl called Dorothy has gone missing her Uncle Henry said she was last seen in the company of a scarecrow and tinman.

  15. Huntn macrumors P6


    May 5, 2008
    The Misty Mountains
  16. Happybunny macrumors 68000

    Sep 9, 2010
    I think that you would be better off asking someone from the UK about this.:D
  17. Peterkro macrumors 68020


    Aug 17, 2004
    Communard de Londres
    I live in an area with a high proportion of black residents,I've been stopped and searched twice in thirty five years for many of my neighbours especially the young ones it's an almost daily experience.I'm white they are black.
  18. Rampant.A.I. macrumors 6502a

    Sep 25, 2009
    I like this. It's almost like they arrest the criminals before the crimes are committed.

  19. garybUK Guest


    Jun 3, 2002
    Ah it's you, the Anti-UK brigade... post then pull back with a cop out :)

    He must be up to no-good or have a history? I'm sure the majority of black people aren't stopped and searched like this??
  20. Happybunny macrumors 68000

    Sep 9, 2010
    I only said that he would be better off asking someone who lived there.

    Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East, Labour)
    I am grateful for the opportunity to have this debate about the use of stop-and-search by the Metropolitan police. I should like to declare an interest, although it is not the normal type of interest that Members of Parliament declare in the House. I am a white 37-year-old woman. I have never been stopped by the police. My contact with them has only ever been polite, professional and reassuring. On the whole, I think they do a difficult job very well. Although I suspect those sentiments are shared by themajority of my constituents, I know they are not shared by all of them. That is why I called for this debate.
    When I became an MP two years ago, I had limited knowledge of stop-and-search as a policing tool. I knew that the police had the power to stop people whom they suspected of wrongdoing and to search them for weapons and drugs. I knew that on occasions the police could issue a blanket provision in an area for a specified period, which would enable officers to stop individuals, even without reasonable suspicion, if serious violence was anticipated or had just happened. I also knew that under terrorism legislation the police could stop and search individuals who were suspected of involvement in terrorist acts.
    What I did not know when I became an MP, but do know now, is how often stop-and-search is used by the police in certain parts of London and how young black and Asian men in particular are disproportionately affected. I had not appreciated the damage that can be done to individuals, families and communities when that policing tool is used inappropriately and to excess. I also know now that only one in 10 stop-and-searches in London results in an arrest.
    In my two years as an MP, I have had my eyes opened. Mums have attended my surgeries in tears about the way in which their sons have been treated by the police. I have met young men*and boys who tell me that they have been stopped by the police and been treated roughly and rudely*and that they have felt embarrassed, humiliated and targeted. To be fair, I have met others who have also been stopped and searched who tell me that, although it was not a nice experience, they thought that the police did a reasonable job and that they did not have any complaints.
    The Government and the Metropolitan police need to go further and faster to improve the way that stop-and-search is used. As it is used at the moment, it can be counter-productive and can create tension and mistrust between the police and the communities that they serve and protect. I want to be assured that, at the highest level, the Government and the police understand the resentment that has built up over a number of years among some individuals in certain sections of the population who feel that they are being disproportionately targeted. Although the power to stop and search is important and must remain, the number of occasions on which stop-and-search is used in London should be reduced. Section 60 notices—the blanket provisions that I have mentioned—must be used less frequently and cover smaller areas.
    Of all stop-and-searches carried out under section 60 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, 89% are in the Metropolitan police area. Between 2006 and
    2009, the number of those searches nationally went from 44,659 to 118,112. Within that figure, the number of black people stopped increased by 303%, from about 9,000 to nearly 39,000, and the number of Asian people stopped increased by 399%. Although that type of stop-and-search is now thankfully on the decline, with a 49% drop in the past year, it lies behind the resentment and anger that have grown in some communities in London. It is the backdrop to a situation that was reflected in the report by the Equality and Human Rights Commission last month, which showed that if you are black you are 37 times more likely to be stopped under a section 60 notice than if you are white.
    Getting a grip on section 60 notices and limiting the instances in which they are used is one action point identified by the Metropolitan Police Commissioner in his plan to improve effectiveness of stop-and-search. I welcome that move and urge him, and the Government, to monitor closely boroughs in London with the highest authorisations historically, especially where those authorisations cover whole boroughs, as opposed to specific localities.





  21. Happybunny, Aug 29, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2012

    Happybunny macrumors 68000

    Sep 9, 2010
    I think that these figures speak for themselves.

    I do think that the black teenagers story is more than plausible.

    Police forces are up to 28 times more likely to use stop-and-search powers against black people than white people and may be breaking the law, new research from the official human rights body reveals.

    The research from the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) looked at police stop powers where officers do not require suspicion of involvement in crime, known as section 60 stops.

    The power is used most by the Metropolitan police, which carried out three-quarters of the stops between 2008-11, some 258,000 in total. The next heaviest user was Merseyside with 40,940 stops. Some forces barely use the power.

    Thus what the Metropolitan police does can skew the national picture and the data shows a Met officer is about 30 times more likely to use section 60 to stop a black person than a colleague outside London.

    The figures show how often black Britons experience stop and search through section 60 alone, never mind the more commonly used other stop-and-search powers. The EHRC found that in 2008-09, the Met stopped 68 out of every 1,000 black people in its area. This fell to 32.8 per 1,000 by 2010-11. In the rest of England, the figure was down to 1.2 stops per 1,000 black people by 2010-11.

    Section 60 of the 1994 Public Order Act was introduced to target originally brought in to tackle people going to illegal raves. It gave police the power, if they feared violence or disorder, to stop and search suspects at a specific time and place.

    Most stops in England and Wales require an officer to have "reasonable suspicion" that someone is involved in crime. Section 60 gives an officer maximum discretion and privately police fear its wide-ranging nature and the discretion it gives officers, plus the allegations it is being abused, may lead the courts to strike it down – as happened with section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000, which had to be reformed after the courts ruled its provision allowing stops without suspicion was too wide-ranging.

    The EHRC notes that while the overall use of section 60 had fallen, excessive use of the power against ethnic minorities, known as racial disproportionality, had continued or even increased. The report found a rise in the percentage of ethnic minorities among those stopped under section 60 between 2008-11, from 51% to 64%.

    The commission said the police may be breaching their legal responsibilities, known as the public-sector equality duty: "Any continuing and serious disproportionate use of these powers against ethnic minorities may indicate that the police and Home Office are not complying with their public-sector duties obligations."

    The worst rates of racial disproportionality were outside London, according to the EHRC. An officer in the West Midlands was 28 times more likely to stop and search a black person than a white person, in the Greater Manchester force the figure was 21 times, in the Met 11 times, and for British Transport police the figure was 31 times.

    Nationally, the EHRC said black people were 37 times more likely to be stopped and searched under section 60 than white people in 2010-11. From 2008 to 2011, the racial disproportionality worsened for the Met and West Midlands forces, while Greater Manchester's disproportionality rate in 2008-9 was 44.9 times greater, which had been halved three years later.

    Racial disproportionality meant an officer was 10 times more likely to stop Asian Britons than a white person, with the worst offender being West Midlands police.

    The EHRC said through section 60 alone ethnic minorities underwent more than 100,000 excessive searches over 2008-11.

    Figures also show that section 60 may be ineffective in fighting crime. According to the report: "In England as a whole, only 2.8% of [section] 60 stops and searches resulted in an arrest in 2008-09 and this decreased to 2.3% in 2010-11. Of these, fewer than one in five arrests were for offensive weapons."

    The fact that arrest rates are similar for black and white Britons suggests problems in how police use the power, the EHRC said: "The lack of a significant difference does not prove that black people are not inappropriately targeted."

    Simon Woolley, a commissioner at the EHRC, said: "Our research shows black youths are still being disproportionately targeted, and without a clear explanation as to why, many in the community will see this as racial profiling.

    "Moreover, police data itself questions the effectiveness of this practice. Some forces are using 200 or 300 stops before arresting an individual over a weapon.

    "We are encouraged at least that the Met seek to review the practice with a clear objective that avoids the crude measure of racial profiling and focuses on intelligence-led policing."

    The Met is being threatened with a legal challenge over allegations that it discriminates in its use of section 60 stop and search. The commission has previously said it believes the Met's use of section 60 is unlawful.

    The Met said it was reforming its use of the power and would aim to make it more focused on tackling violence and reduce the number of stops carried out.

    However, in a statement, the Met's deputy commissioner, Craig Mackey, who speaks on stop-and-search issues for the Association of Chief Police Officers, said: "Chief officers support the use of stop and search as these powers are critical in our efforts to tackle knife, gun and gang crimes.

    "It is important that there is a debate about the effectiveness of these police tactics as we seek to balance the impact of powers, like section 60, on our communities with the need to protect communities from serious crime.

    "The police service is firmly committed to working, both locally and nationally, to ensure all sections of society have confidence in the police service and we look forward to working with EHRC to better understand the evidence shown in this report and how it can influence our decision making."

    Eight forces did not provide information to the EHRC or claimed exemption under the Freedom of Information Act; they are Avon and Somerset, Cleveland, Essex, Nottinghamshire, Staffordshire, Sussex, West Yorkshire and Wiltshire.
  22. Huntn macrumors P6


    May 5, 2008
    The Misty Mountains
    Why were you stopped and searched? Just because they felt like it? For blacks, don't they call that profiling? Most liberty minded folks look down upon that. My question regards the harassed kid in the article. Is this a case of a known troublemaker being hassled or strictly profiling? Both are bad. My reasoning is that you should give troublemakers trouble only when they are causing trouble. ;)

    If you look at the Martin Zimmerman case in Florida, here is a case where profiling and a stupid law that allows just about everyone to carry firearms resulted in a death.
  23. Peterkro macrumors 68020


    Aug 17, 2004
    Communard de Londres
    Once for not moving on while witnessing the search of several young black kids once for being in an area where young black kids were hanging out.The ethos is "all young blacks are drug dealers if you're in these areas you are buying drugs hence you get searched as well".The Met has a instituionally racist outlook (not every member but overall).The UK has a major problem with racism,it has got better over the decades but still has a long way to go.

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