I know Apple would never do this but let's just do a theoretical exercise. The Steam machine is said to be stronger than the steam deck which puts it around 9 tflops. If Apple actually wanted to create an Appletv Pro or gaming console hybrid would they need to stick a M2 Max or M3 pro or something similar into this machine? How would the pricing be?
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If Apple was actually serious about gaming and wanted to create it's own version of a Steam Machine how should they do it?
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I meant my laughing emoji. This is not a realistic exercise, even as a theoretical. The SteamDeck and SteamMachine have value entirely due to the effort Valve has put into Proton for Linux, giving them access to much of the gaming library on Steam without the overhead of Windows. The audience is obvious and large.
There’s nothing technical stopping Apple from creating a little rocket of an AppleTV “Pro”, and if anything Apple Silicon is well oriented toward that application. But deciding what chip or what specs is where it falls down because what is the market for this machine? Who does it serve, and what do they need this extra performance to run?
If it’s Mac games, then you have your answer: you’re looking for apple to reinvent the Mac Mini.
If it’s iOS/AppleArcade games, this box also already exists and it’s called the AppleTV.
If it’s Windows games run with a translation layer like the SteamMachine… well, there’s no planet where Apple enables that as a first-party function in a device like an AppleTV so it’s not worth considering. Doing so sidesteps their precious AppStore construct and they’ll die on that hill above all else.
There’s nothing technical stopping Apple from creating a little rocket of an AppleTV “Pro”, and if anything Apple Silicon is well oriented toward that application. But deciding what chip or what specs is where it falls down because what is the market for this machine? Who does it serve, and what do they need this extra performance to run?
If it’s Mac games, then you have your answer: you’re looking for apple to reinvent the Mac Mini.
If it’s iOS/AppleArcade games, this box also already exists and it’s called the AppleTV.
If it’s Windows games run with a translation layer like the SteamMachine… well, there’s no planet where Apple enables that as a first-party function in a device like an AppleTV so it’s not worth considering. Doing so sidesteps their precious AppStore construct and they’ll die on that hill above all else.
@cateye nailed the problem, but for the sake of playing your game:
Apple do already have a major gaming platform with lots of games - it’s called iOS. They’ve already got a range of hardware devices you buy to play those games - iPhones & iPads.
So if Apple really wanted a gaming console their best bet would be a handheld with better game-playing ergonomics than an iDevice but still compatible with touch- and gyroscope-based games. Plus, this plays to the strengths of Apple Silicon which is ahead of the game for small/low power/integrated CPU power but struggles when size and power consumption are less important.
What game publisher/developer will increase their overhead, complexity for 2% of gamers playing on the mac?
Here's the issue as I see it, if a publisher produces a game on windows, that means that its available on linux/steam deck, and mac users can play it via crossover and/or Geforce Now. What motivation is there for studios, to add a platform that will not increase their sales.
Macs are not known for gaming, and given their marketshare, I don't see that changing
They could do this for iOS games with a high-end A series chip. Without the battery and some active cooling, that would work better than an iPhone Pro. If there are serious, you'd probably see a "Pro" model with a base M series chip
There might be a market for all those Hoyoverse games that cook phones, Apple Arcade, the console ports, etc.
There might be a market for all those Hoyoverse games that cook phones, Apple Arcade, the console ports, etc.
I continue to think Apple and gaming is one of the hugest missed opportunities. They have the hardware. They have the operating system, the frameworks, the APIs. They literally have all the pieces to do an amazing console or portable gaming device.
All they need to do is build some devices and seriously invest in a few first-party exclusives. Or just buy Nintendo, I guess. All this talk about Linux or Windows is irrelevant. If Apple makes their platform appealing for games, developers will come. They don't need a translation layer to port every Steam game or any of this other nonsense Valve is doing. They just need to create a device that is designed for gaming first and invest in a catalogue of games to support it. It's really that simple.
Apple loves being gatekeepers and taking a cut from software and yet they're totally absent from non-mobile gaming. It's just so bizarre.
All they need to do is build some devices and seriously invest in a few first-party exclusives. Or just buy Nintendo, I guess. All this talk about Linux or Windows is irrelevant. If Apple makes their platform appealing for games, developers will come. They don't need a translation layer to port every Steam game or any of this other nonsense Valve is doing. They just need to create a device that is designed for gaming first and invest in a catalogue of games to support it. It's really that simple.
Apple loves being gatekeepers and taking a cut from software and yet they're totally absent from non-mobile gaming. It's just so bizarre.
"If Apple was actually serious about gaming"
Sadly, they are not, never have been and I don't think they ever will be.
The only part of "gaming" that Apple likes is the "make a lot of money" part.
Sadly, they are not, never have been and I don't think they ever will be.
The only part of "gaming" that Apple likes is the "make a lot of money" part.
Apple is "serious" about gaming in their own, specific, insular way. And truthfully, it's been successful for them, financially, due entirely to the luck of the iPhone's dominance. Something like a Proton layer for Mac that ceded the Mac gaming market to alternate storefronts and non-native games would be refreshing and consumer-friendly in the way it would allow Mac users to completely bypass Apple's ham-fisted control of every partnership and App Store-centric approach. Therefore, Apple isn't interested.
It's also the only reasonable pathway forward. Because if Valve is able to continue chipping away at the Windows gaming hegemony without asking developers to give up their inertia for development on Windows, it will further demonstrate to developers that Apple's "you need to support our minority platform using our tools, our way, and if you want any support from us you need to publish it on our storefront and give us our cut" approach is even more out of touch than we already know it to be.
It's also the only reasonable pathway forward. Because if Valve is able to continue chipping away at the Windows gaming hegemony without asking developers to give up their inertia for development on Windows, it will further demonstrate to developers that Apple's "you need to support our minority platform using our tools, our way, and if you want any support from us you need to publish it on our storefront and give us our cut" approach is even more out of touch than we already know it to be.
This is the correct answer.
Look at the numbers. Nintendo, PlayStation, Xbox each generate roughly $2-3 billion annual net profit. Apple Wearables, Home, and Accessories pulls in about $40B in revenue each year. With Apple's huge margins, why would they do gaming?
And it's clear that gaming isn't just about hardware or operating systems. There's first party IP, ecosystem lock in, innovation, and X-factors like brand assets. These are not Apple strengths.
Because things like NVIDIA shield could end up impacting Apples upgrade cycle if consumers don't need stronger GPUs why upgrade from a m2 air to an m5 max? Plus in China gaming is huge and you don't want to ceed that ground unilaterally. I think the competition is forcing them to care about gaming.
I'm not sure I understand you point, how does the Nvidia Shield product impact apple? Its basically a means to stream games. We actually have that ability now, i.e., using Geforce Now game streaming service.
The base Mac Mini already is a pretty good "Steam Machine". A few tweaks here and there to make it more appropriate for game use and it's set to go.
It's more of a problem of focus and foster confidence from top game developers. The Steam part of the Steam Machine already has that work done for them.
It's more of a problem of focus and foster confidence from top game developers. The Steam part of the Steam Machine already has that work done for them.
Not that I outright disagree but you should compare apples to apples. For exemple Playstation 2024 revenue was around 30B.
A segment of consumers will not feel the need to upgrade their Mac to a better Gpu is what I'm saying.
Yes, but they/we have that functionality today and that doesn't move the mac gaming needle one iota, as playing games on Geforce Now show up as windows based games to the telemetry.
What they’re serious about isn’t the sort of gaming that serious gamers do. They’re serious about casual gaming. Which is where the mass market subscription money is.
If they put an M4 Mini in a black box with lurid RGB lights and pointless weird graphics on it, a different set up program that allowed pairing of game controllers and a portal to download AAA titles, it'd be a perfectly good gaming machine.
The problem is the gamers don't want the apple logo on it. They want to wave around their Hyper-X Ammo-Farm Numby-Dumby B75000 Turbo Clanker motherboard, Turbo-Monster-Gakka Weeb Edition GetForce RTX 990000, Sminky-Pinky RGB Spanish Inquisition DDR69 DRAM and Monster cooled Yamachachichi radiator array.
Apple are too good for that utter wank.
(Note I build PCs occasionally and some of the product branding is embarrassing to even look at)
The problem is the gamers don't want the apple logo on it. They want to wave around their Hyper-X Ammo-Farm Numby-Dumby B75000 Turbo Clanker motherboard, Turbo-Monster-Gakka Weeb Edition GetForce RTX 990000, Sminky-Pinky RGB Spanish Inquisition DDR69 DRAM and Monster cooled Yamachachichi radiator array.
Apple are too good for that utter wank.
(Note I build PCs occasionally and some of the product branding is embarrassing to even look at)
Why would they make a new category for this though? I think it's way more likely that the ATV would just get a better processor so it can handle more demanding games, potentially porting some MacOS AAA games over, but the Mac mini is almost definetly going to be cheaper then what the Steam Machine costs, so if someone really wanted they could hook one up to their TV. I don't think there would be enough demand for a device positioned between the ATV and Mac, because I don't think it could do anything that their other existing product lines can't.
Currently? I think it's pretty minimal. Over the next few years as the next console generation kicks off, I think we will see a ton more devices like this.
It isn't Apple that isn't serious about gaming. Development studios, that have to budget time, money and other resources into adding a platform target for their game, aren't serious about the Mac as a platform.
M-series chips could play games just fine. The users of M-series chips are not gamers. Not enough of them to warrant supporting the Mac as a platform.
M-series chips could play games just fine. The users of M-series chips are not gamers. Not enough of them to warrant supporting the Mac as a platform.
Hello, 54 year old gamer here. I've been active in gamer culture for 30+ years, including playing competitively (as in, for money). I've attended 'cons, been in focus groups for game development houses, and spent time as a gaming clan member. I assure you, of the hundreds if not thousands of people I've interacted with about gaming over the years, not once have I met someone disinterested in gaming on the Mac because of any of the reasons you state. You'd be surprised how many I've met who were Mac users for everything other than gaming. Like me.
So what's the problem, then? The long-harbored, Steve Jobs-born dismissal of games, gaming culture, and the power of games as an art form by Apple and its most fervent users has continually poisoned the precious few honest attempts there has been for publishers and developers to embrace the Mac as a platform for AAA games, and I'm convinced the same will keep happening, even as we finally have broad availability of Mac hardware that is well positioned to enable gaming. I cut Apple platforms loose from my gaming needs and wants years ago exactly because of this arrogance and the lack of broader community support. I see no reason to return.
If being committed to the Apple brand and what it represents is more important to someone than the games they get to play, and that works for them, far be it from me to expect them to change. But that was never going to work for me—the games come first.
Again, then, this brings us back to the idea of an Apple Silicon-based SteamMachine with the same focus on creating broad compatibility with existing game catalogs and alternate storefronts. Does Apple Silicon represent a sea-change in the technical viability of a device like this? Absolutely Yes. Has Apple shown, with Rosetta and the GPT, the engineering expertise and resources to produce cross-platform translation layers that are functional and performant? Also Yes. (Remember, Valve has been working on Proton for over ten years.)
Is Apple willing to take the next step to make these technologies the cornerstone of a new push into gaming availability for Mac users independent of its closed-loop storefronts and singular focus on recurring revenue generation, and are Mac users willing and interested to embrace games and game culture as it exists and on its own terms?
No, to both.
thanks, I was trying to estimate r&d, marketing, production cost to estimate an 'on the shelf' price. needless to say I think it is more than most of these gamers to be would be willing to pay based on minimal unit sales ( say a percentage of Mac mini sales)
I don't think Apple could ever be serious about gaming and I don't think that gamers would ever ditch x86/x64 for a Mac.