If NOT Dreamweaver... then WHAT???

iriejedi

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 4, 2000
807
116
Nor Cal
Hi everyone - :confused:

I'd really like some opinions on Dreamweaver 'like' software. I have Dreamweave MX (v6.1) and was considering using my Edu discount for v7 (MX 2004) - but I hear on the threads from time to time how this is not a great option; that it is slow and all the other yadda yadda yadda's. in my "SELF-taught" state of skill, with enought knowledge to do real basic stuff, links inside pictures and image changes when a mouse is rolled over and basic tutorial stuff - I thought Dreamweaver was pretty slick. But I have not used anything else to make a genuine comparison.

So Since most major Apps (Go Live, etc...) have a simialr Edu discount - what is considered to be powerful and user friendly and worth the purchase price. What would you buy to go from beginner to a more intermediate level of skill?

Thank you for your opinions. :D

Iriejedi
 

Steven1621

macrumors 6502a
Apr 10, 2003
796
0
Connecticut
Adobe GoLive is a great program. I tend to prefer Dreamweaver for my work. Just out of habit, perhaps. I'm not sure of the levels of your abilty, but those programs can be learned easily if you take the time. If you want easy webdesign, MS FrontPage for Windows is you best bet. They make it painless with all the templates and such. I say go with Dreamweaver or FrontPage, though.
 

Thirteenva

macrumors 6502a
Jul 18, 2002
679
0
If you have Dreamweaver MX and only a basic skill level, why do you need to upgrade? DW MX was a pretty good product (in some ways better than DW MX '04) so just stick with that. Spend the money on something else. I don't think you need to upgrade to MX '04 or move to GoLive.
 

kgarner

macrumors 68000
Jan 28, 2004
1,513
0
Utah
Don't use Frontpage. It will give you the worst code of any WYSIWYG editor many times only working with Internet Explorer. If you must use WYSIWYG then go with Go Live or Dreamweaver. Personally, I reccomend investing in some books (see below) and a text editor (I use SubEthaEdit because its free). That way you can really understand what is going on when you create your site. And it really doesn't take too long to learn how to do this stuff.

HTML for the World Wide Web with XHTML and CSS
Designing with Web Standards
Eric Meyer on CSS

Edit: NOt sure what's up with those links, but the books do show up on the page it takes you to. Just look under the the Agent Orange video thing and they are listed there.
 

nelwd

macrumors newbie
Jan 8, 2004
14
0
Freeway

Hi

I use Freeway. It is easy to use and comes with some good templates. I have managed to get children as young as 7 to create their own basic site using it. (I am a primary school teacher) The online tutorials are very through, and it will allow you to create very advanced sites as well if you want to.

http://www.softpress.com/en

The link will take you to their site, where you can download a working trial, which works for 30 days.
 

Sammie

macrumors newbie
Nov 4, 2004
19
0
Peawanuck, Ontario
Here's the route I took and it helped me and now, I sleep better!

Learn Html, than, XTHML, which only means extension, and the only difference is u close all the codes. Than learn CSS. Once u read code and to which is easy, u will learn to read and learn why dreamweaver and the other programs do what they are supposed to do. Cause wysiwyg can sometimes mean "what you see isnt what you get" with all editing programs in everyday applications and work.

Remember, HTML is now considered structure, CSS is styling and making the pages look cool n neat which html cannot do. Javascript is for those neat rollovers when u put ur mouse over. If u learn html and coding, you can make a style sheet and make changes to all pages, lets say 1,000 for arguments sake in one second. If u don't...well, it will take u weeks to make changes to content for 1,000 pages. In other words your skills are limited and thats the diff between from those who make web pages and professionals. Reading code is easy, but u must also know photoshop to make great sites. HOPE THAT HELPS :D
 

DanTekGeek

macrumors 6502
Nov 11, 2004
263
0
Denver, CO
im also learning web programming, and the most visual program i use is simply a text editor with a preview. if you are going to learn to make good code, and thus, good websites, you have to do it on your own. i tried dreamweaver, and i really didnt like how little control i had. just a suggestion.
 

Darwin

macrumors 65816
Jun 2, 2003
1,082
0
round the corner
Im proberly going to go with Freeway Express, i'm not planning at becoming a pro but I need something to use for simple projects

I thought about DW but I think I'll stick with purchasing Freeway
 

Yotabyte

macrumors member
Nov 15, 2004
49
0
Perth, Australia.
Photoshop and a text editor p4wnes dreamweaver all the time. (I do web design on a windows PC, so I am not using Mac Wear. I use Editplus and Photoshop, Editplus ownes all)

p.s. I included photoshop as I use it actively in the web DESIGN process, not only for image design.
 

Thirteenva

macrumors 6502a
Jul 18, 2002
679
0
DanTekGeek said:
im also learning web programming, and the most visual program i use is simply a text editor with a preview. if you are going to learn to make good code, and thus, good websites, you have to do it on your own. i tried dreamweaver, and i really didnt like how little control i had. just a suggestion.
Little control??? This is a pretty ignorant statement. You have AT LEAST the same amount of control with DW as you do with a text editor, but in reality you have more control.

I have been using dreamweaver for 5 years. It is extremely powerful and offers MORE control. Does your text editor show you gui changes right below where you're writing code like DW does in split view? Does you're text editor have code completion and syntax coloring. Can you save code snippets for easy reuse? Can you create reusable objects that are easily and seamlessly integrated on each page that uses them? Do all pages containing this control get updated at once when you need to make a change to it? Can you edit an image simply by right clicking and choosing to edit, then have it auto open in your editor of choice? How about live preview mode for dynamic pages? Integrated ftp? I can go on and on...

I agree that hand coding is the way to go, but I LOVE that dreamweaver gives me time saving options for design and development...If you don't like DW to right code for you, I AGREE, and the great thing is that it only writes code for you if you tell it to. So saying that it takes control away is just plain IGNORANT.

If you ever work in an actual development/design environment, you'll discover that having a tool that helps you is a necessity, especially if you plan to keep that job. NO employer will say "Well, he works slowly, but hell, at least he can say he codes it all by hand".

Having the ability to hand code everything and actually doing it are two different things. You need the ability to hand code to get the job... you need to use tools that make things easier in order to keep that job.
 

iriejedi

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 4, 2000
807
116
Nor Cal
Thank you everyone!

Wow - looks like I opened up a can of worms. I decided on Adobe's GoLive since I found the Academic version for $74 (vs $399 retail) - I considered the Freeway Program but it was twice as much and I'm already quite handy with Photoshop CS so I went for the Brand name. Plus, I know I have Dreamweave MX (6.1) to fall back on.

Thank you for the replies.

Iriejedi



Darwin said:
Im proberly going to go with Freeway Express, i'm not planning at becoming a pro but I need something to use for simple projects

I thought about DW but I think I'll stick with purchasing Freeway
 

bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
13,951
3
Gone but not forgotten.
iriejedi said:
Wow - looks like I opened up a can of worms. I decided on Adobe's GoLive since I found the Academic version for $74 (vs $399 retail) - I considered the Freeway Program but it was twice as much and I'm already quite handy with Photoshop CS so I went for the Brand name. Plus, I know I have Dreamweave MX (6.1) to fall back on.

Thank you for the replies.

Iriejedi
It's quite a can of worms. I've been using GoLive since version 4.0, the first Adobe version and I really didn't like it much then but it's come a long way. The one thing that always pushes me back to it is Macromedia's scattering of information. You may have to go 5 different places to set up one little thing. Once you're accustomed to the disorder, Dreamweaver is extremely capable.
 

Thirteenva

macrumors 6502a
Jul 18, 2002
679
0
iriejedi said:
Wow - looks like I opened up a can of worms.
I just get tired of people saying "I only use a text editor" like they want a medal for it. We all learned with a text editor obviously since thats all that was available, it was free and your needs are basic in the beginning. I can't imagine coding our 700 page web application using a text editor only. Dreamweaver's library and cascading template option alone has saved me days worth of work.

I often wonder if these people beat their chest and go hunting for their food because a real man would never buy meat off a shelf...

If you want to enter the realm of web design and development, by all means learn to hand code, and when you upgrade your skills again, do it by hand coding (when i migrated to css positioning from table based design last year I did it all by hand). Don't rely on the tool to build things for you, rely on it to help you build things faster.

HOWEVER, know how to use your tools because in a production job, time is money and the tool will make you more productive and your bosses happy.
 

kettle

macrumors 65816
Thirteenva said:
I just get tired of people saying "I only use a text editor" like they want a medal for it. We all learned with a text editor obviously since thats all that was available, it was free and your needs are basic in the beginning. I can't imagine coding our 700 page web application using a text editor only. Dreamweaver's library and cascading template option alone has saved me days worth of work.

I often wonder if these people beat their chest and go hunting for their food because a real man would never buy meat off a shelf...

If you want to enter the realm of web design and development, by all means learn to hand code, and when you upgrade your skills again, do it by hand coding (when i migrated to css positioning from table based design last year I did it all by hand). Don't rely on the tool to build things for you, rely on it to help you build things faster.

HOWEVER, know how to use your tools because in a production job, time is money and the tool will make you more productive and your bosses happy.
Despite wanting to agree with you about the fastest way to get a tasty steak meal, I would also point out that going out to hunt for your food and killing it with your own hands is the only way to make sure someone isn't selling you horse meat.

In a horse meat scenario, all Dreamweaver will help you do is produce 700 pages of horse meat much quicker.

So YES, if someone can bothered to learn HTML and CSS by hand, the DO deserve a medal, and with it they get to understand exactly why WYSIWYG coding is rarely a time saver. The WYSIWYG isn't the clever thing about Dreamweaver, like Thirteenva, I think it's large project abilities are what gives it wings.

Thirteenva said:
Little control??? This is a pretty ignorant statement. You have AT LEAST the same amount of control with DW as you do with a text editor, but in reality you have more control.
Just wrong. You have to do it the way Dreamweaver wants it or you have to re edit it. Keep your opinion though, I suppose (I know) people have completely different ideas about good design and good accessibility.
 

rand()

macrumors regular
Jul 15, 2004
151
0
Michigan
Thirteenva said:
Little control??? This is a pretty ignorant statement. You have AT LEAST the same amount of control with DW as you do with a text editor, but in reality you have more control.
Time to calm down a bit.

There's *absolutely nothing* wrong with using Dreamweaver or GoLive (Frontmonopolypage I have a problem with). Nothing. The points you make are very good. But you need to not be a spaz, and realize that there are text editors that do several things you mention. (You also mention ignorance, try not to embody it.)

For example - jEdit (which I have recently fallen in love with) has color syntax highlighting and code completion in practically every programming language known to man - not just HTML, CSS, Javascript, and PHP, but certainly including them. It also offers as many split views of multiple documents as you can handle, in whatever configuration you like.

With a text editor, the workflow is a matter of choice, rather than a stuck-with-Macromedia/Adobe/Microshaft's-interface situation.

As for controls that auto-update on every page, simply dividing your content from your interface does that by its very nature.

Also, many 'features' you cite are as well or better managed simply with the windowing system of your OS rather than within one app. So, yes, I can right-click on an image and have it edit in the editor of my choice. I also can use Exposé to get to my 5 browsers quickly and make sure my code renders properly in all browsers. In Fluxbox, I can cruise windows in much the same way. Without touching the mouse. (A mouse has 1 button. A keyboard has ~104. Which can get more work done, and how much faster?)

A good designer/programmer can get just as many useful and pretty pages written with a *good* text editor in just as little time. Often, they get even more done. It's simply a matter of workflow. For some, Dreamweaver's style hinders that flow, which is why they go text. For others, that text style is confusing, and Dreamweaver offers an all-in-one solution.

But please, don't pretend that either way is vastly superior to the other.

Thanks. Sorry for calling you a spaz. No hard feelings? :eek:

-rand()
 

Yvan256

macrumors 603
Jul 5, 2004
5,032
886
Canada
kettle said:
yep, Books and text editor.

Zeldman - "Designing With Web Standards" - excellent

http://www.zeldman.com/dwws/
I second that.

WYSIWYG for the Web is one of the worst thing ever.

You do need a tool for graphics slicing/optimization though. A shame that Adobe doesn't sell ImageReady separately anymore.
 

Yvan256

macrumors 603
Jul 5, 2004
5,032
886
Canada
rand() said:
But please, don't pretend that either way is vastly superior to the other.
Depends. If the WYSIWYG program still spits out websites that uses tables for the layout, then throw it into the trash.

If your WYSIWYG program does allow you to use CSS for the layout, and the final ouput is W3C-compliant, then by all mean use it if you want.

A clean CSS layout, content and style separation, lightweight pages and W3C compliant code is all that matter in the end.
 

rand()

macrumors regular
Jul 15, 2004
151
0
Michigan
Yvan256 said:
Depends. If the WYSIWYG program still spits out websites that uses tables for the layout, then throw it into the trash.

If your WYSIWYG program does allow you to use CSS for the layout, and the final ouput is W3C-compliant, then by all mean use it if you want.

A clean CSS layout, content and style separation, lightweight pages and W3C compliant code is all that matter in the end.
That's my problem with Frontpage :)
 

Yvan256

macrumors 603
Jul 5, 2004
5,032
886
Canada
Thirteenva said:
If you want to enter the realm of web design and development, by all means learn to hand code, and when you upgrade your skills again, do it by hand coding (when i migrated to css positioning from table based design last year I did it all by hand). Don't rely on the tool to build things for you, rely on it to help you build things faster.

HOWEVER, know how to use your tools because in a production job, time is money and the tool will make you more productive and your bosses happy.
A lot of hand coders don't like WYSIWYG coders for one simple reason: most of the WYSIWYG coders just fire up their program, never learn HTML/XHTML nor CSS, and just let the program spit out pages for them.

Hand coders *do* deserve a medal for coding by hand and knowing their stuff (I'll still put down hand coders who use tables for layout and similar crap, though). WYSIWYG coders who do learn HTML/XHTML and CSS *also* deserve a medal because they did learn how the medium works.

In the end, WYSIWYG or not, it all depends on the quality of your work. The WYSIWYG and text editors are only tools and are a matter of choice/preference, you still have to learn your real medium, which is HTML/XHTML, CSS, image optimisation, code compliance with W3C, and of course checking that your valid code does work in the major browser (Netscape 4 is NOT a major browser, ditch that POS as soon as you can, put it in the same bag as Netscape 3, no CSS).
 

decksnap

macrumors 68040
Apr 11, 2003
3,070
70
I don't know if these 'hand coders' never used Dreamweaver or what, but it is a very useful program that does a LOT of things, whether you feel the need to hand code or not. Being able to manage my entire site(s),map it, structure it, FTP, check files in and out with others in my environment, view browser check errors, split view my code and my layout, find and replace sitewide, manage code snippits, and on, and on... It doesn't matter if you're using straight CSS or table layout, or even if you decide for some reason to hand code it, or even hand code it in a different program. Dreamweaver still has a lot of uses.
 

12ibookg4

macrumors regular
Dec 22, 2003
199
0
I use HyperEdit It's a text editor but it colors the syntax and has a live updating preview pane of the web page. And the preview pane shows extactly what it will look like in Safari unlike Dreamweaver which often renders pages wrong when I edit complex templetes.
 

bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
13,951
3
Gone but not forgotten.
I know that a lot of people like plain text editors and Bare Bones Edit is great for HTML, but there's no project management, which is why I use an application such as Dreamweaver or GoLive. If I have 50 pages and need to update one thing in all 50 pages, it's simple but not so with a text editor.

Add to that the site map graphic and smart FTP, I know of no good reason to just use a plain text editor.