If the South had seceded...

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by puma1552, May 5, 2014.

  1. puma1552 macrumors 601

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    #1
    If the south were allowed to secede during the civil war, and the south was judged as a separate country against the north, how do you think it would compare today in terms of literacy rates, education, teen pregnancy/sex education, income per capita, poverty, quality of life/standard of living, life expectancy, GNP/GDP, and human rights?
     
  2. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #2
    I would've never been born. My granddad was from Vermont, and met my grandma while visiting Chattanooga. If we had seceded, I doubt he would've been able to take that trip.

    ...and me not being here would be the most tragic thing of all.
     
  3. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

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    #3
    My guess is slavery would have died out on its own in 20-30 years, and the standard of living would be much like other third world countries. Look at the quality of life in central american countries and I'd imagine you'd see something similar.
     
  4. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #4
    I'd agree somewhat, with the exception of slavery. With the so-called "Five Civilized Tribes" adopting that custom, it definitely would have spread further throughout the 'country'. I'd say we'd be looking at at least 5 different countries on the continent, with California being what Hawaii and Alaska are now; that lone island way out west.

    BL.
     
  5. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #6
    Nah.. that was already beat down by the battle for Texas, which they had lost (Alamo and all). Texas was already a slave state prior to the Civil War. The question would actually be, when would Oklahoma and others come into existence, and which country would get to the land first?

    California and Oregon, and Kansas were already free or neutral states. Oklahoma, New Mexico, Utah, the Dakotas, Nebraska, Colorado, Montana, Idaho, and Washington were all territories or not part of the US still. The race would be on for that, and what would come of slavery there.

    My guess is that the South would have pushed further west, but no further west than Texas; There were already understandings (not sure if they were on paper) that slavery would be prohibited in lands west of Texas. I believe the Wilmot Proviso has something on it.

    But either way, the last map of the country prior to the Civil War gives good insight into what the South could do. At the most, they would have maybe gained a couple of border states, but that was it.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    BL.
     
  6. Huntn Suspended

    Huntn

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    #7
    I was making a figurative statement. ;)
     
  7. G51989 macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #8
    If the south had managed to leave?

    It wouldn't be a pretty picture, it would be kinda like Russia, a " 2nd " world country.

    This is probably due to the fact that even at the time of the civil war, the North was industrializing much much faster, the south was dependent on a cash crop.
     
  8. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #9
    I wonder how peaceful the relationship would be.

    Perhaps we'd have gone to war over other issues.
     
  9. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #10


    Imagine there's no NASCAR
    It's easy if you try
    No Duck Dynasty for us
    Above us only sky
    Imagine all the people
    Living for today...

    Imagine there's no Texas
    It isn't hard to do
    No Carolinas or Georgia
    And no mullets too
    Imagine all the people
    Living life in peace...

    You may say I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will be as one

    :D
     
  10. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 603

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    #11
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Southern Dad macrumors 65816

    Southern Dad

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    #12
    While I was born in Akron, (Don't tell my neighbors) I think the south would have done pretty well as a separate country. Look at the crops grown in the south. The oil.
     
  12. Menel, May 5, 2014
    Last edited: May 5, 2014

    Menel macrumors 603

    Menel

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    #13
    There would have been 620,000 American's who didn't lose their lives if the North had let them secede.

    620,000 Americans to live lives, have children, and their children have children, etc. What innovations could have come from those minds.

    US has a growth rate of about 1%. Since 1865... that's... 923800 people. That's like if tomorrow, the metro populations of Boston and Atlanta vanished in thin air.
     
  13. puma1552 thread starter macrumors 601

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    #14
    Probably fewer innovations than indentured servants.
     
  14. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #15
    You're a goddamn yankee? OH GOD! :mad:
     
  15. G51989 macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #16
    Wow. Akron!

    Also, one of the reasons the south was doing so poorly compared to the north was its reliance on crops with no industry at the time.

    As far as Oil Goes, yes Texas is the top oil producer, the other large producer in the south is Louisiana. But that is pretty much it. The Northeast also drawtfs the South in Industrial and Economic output.

    All the other top oil producing states are out West or in the mid west ( California, Colorado, New Mexico, Kansas , Alaska , North Dakota ).

    As far as food goes, the top producers are California * HUGE LEAD *,Iowa, Texas, Nebraska, Illinois, Minnesota, Kansas, North Carolina, Indiana, and Missouri. Only two of three of those are located in the south.

    While the south would probably still keep slavery legal and turn into a christian run theocracy , if it had separated and maintained isolated from the North, and the West Coast and MidWest to this day, it would not be doing well at all.

    ----------

    Oh noes a Yankee!

    Born and raised in Atlanta Georgia, spent many a summers on my grandpas peanut farm in Camilla Georgia, went to school in Tallahassee at FSU.

    So pretty much born and bred in the south, I even have a bit of the accent ;)

    But I was so glad to get out of that sun-blasted bore hole in exchange for New York ;)

    ----------

    If the south had been allowed to secede, it would have been far worse off than it is today.
     
  16. Menel macrumors 603

    Menel

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    #17
    I don't deny that. I said Americans. Northerners and Southerners alike died in mass during those battles.
     
  17. puma1552 thread starter macrumors 601

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    #18
    Truthfully, I think the south would be a complete disaster in every single category in the OP. "2nd" world would be about right.
     
  18. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #19
    I've done my fair share of traveling (and I intend to do more), and visited more than a few beautiful cities. But for all its weirdness (both good and bad), there's no place quite like home.

    I could leave, go abroad, and be plenty happy wherever I'm at. But I think a bit of my heart will always remain in dear old dixie no matter where I go.
     
  19. G51989 macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #20
    As have I, and Atlanta is ok..Camilla?

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Bistro/36231769942

    The most high end place in town ;)


    [​IMG]

    It was front page news when they got a waffle house ;)

    Its very Dixie, and very awful.

    What did I take away from working on my grandpas peanut farm as a teenager?

    How to operate heavy machinery, and made me hate peanuts ;)

    If I had to live in any city in the deep south, it would be Atlanta, new Orleans or Tallahassee. Cities of common sense surrounded be total insanity
     
  20. localoid macrumors 68020

    localoid

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    #21
    You're forgetting about Mexico and possible ""new acquisitions to be made south of the Rio Grande" that Jefferson Davis, president of the Confederacy, once hinted about in Harper's New Monthly Magazine. The constitution of the Confederate States of America (CSA) specifically allowed for expansion of CSA territory.

    Robert Perkins has a good bit of information online about the CSA covert plans to "attempt to wrest the northern states of Mexico from that Republic and to annex them to the new Southern nation".
     
  21. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #22
    Comeon, you know the quesadillas were good. Places like that always have good quesadillas, if not anything else.

    And you want to talk about weird little towns? A long, long time ago, I used to deliver pizzas out in Tunnel Hill, GA. You know, the place where the flew the Thank God for Fox News billboard shortly after 9/11? Yeah. I could tell you some stories. The Sumo Lady. The Creepy Guy in the Trailer Park. The Crank Lab. The Crazy Lady and the Obviously Traumatized Kid. And the weirdest thing of all...

    ...the fact the tips were quite generous there. You'd think that delivering pizza out in Bumble**** nowhere wouldn't net you much of anything, especially considering I had to drive half an hour out of my way just to get there. But these people were so desperate for something to do, something different, my arrival was like Pepperoni Santa coming on Garlic Sauce Eve to them. A saint to deliver unto them the bounty of greasy food. And they came to see it was good.

    It was such a small town, a Movie Gallery opening up became a huge gala worth event that garnered a goodly bit of media attention. Everyone was there, probably in their Sunday best.

    So yeah, I know about small towns. Thing is, though, I love them. Any backwoods town instantly intrigues me. Contrary to the popular stereotype of the simple backwoods folk, they're about the most suspicious, Machiavellian people you will ever come across. There's always something weird and convoluted going on out there, because...well...there's nothing else to do except spin ghost stories or blow up your neighbor's pig farm.

    ...or be a rich, allegedly gay couple from up north who decided to rough it by building a house by hand and live off the land out in the middle of dense forest along the side of a ridge 10 miles away from anything at all and have antique Victorian furniture helicoptered up on site then engage in pagan/devil worship then get murdered by a couple of good ole boys who happily partook in the psychedelic drugs and possibly more you happily provided because they wanted to pull a get rich quick scheme and thus have your old home become a site for some incredibly bizarre goings on for the next three decades.

    Whew.

    And you know, that's what I like about it. It's just uncivilized enough that there's still a sense of danger and adventure about the place. It's slowly being eroded away by the progress provided by television and the internet, and bog standard suburb expansion. But for now at least, it's still there.

    Course I wouldn't want to immerse myself in it to the point I live there. Chattanooga's just enough of a liberal college town that it serves as a bastion of sanity amongst the crazy that surrounds it. But it's fun having it right in your back yard, there to explore and experience when you feel the need to risk life and limb for an incredibly strange adrenaline rush.
     
  22. G51989 macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #23
    When I was little, sure :) Then I found out what Sysco was ;)

    Agree with all of that, full of nice people. But many cities I have lived in are the same way with the niceness.

    The top dog of nice cities? Pittsburgh PA, no questions asked.

    Also, if you want INSANE.

    Camilla Georgia.

    For some reason, they have these insane little bugs called Gnats, they are ****ing EVERYWHERE.

    Now in a NORMAL town....they would be a well hidden nucince.


    In Camilla? They turn it into an actual beauty pageant, with " Miss Gnat " being the top crown.

    http://www.camillageorgia.com/tourism/Events/GNAT_DAYS_Festival/gnat_days_festival.htm

    Not kidding.

    I know about them to and like lots of them...love American Small towns to visit, I've driven route 66 more than once...incredible.

    Best small towns in the World? France, hands down. If you can speak French as I can, a small French town/village is probably the best place in the world you can find a small inn for the night in your travels.

    Trust me, Camilla introduced me to Mushrooms, it will always have a place in my heart for that ;)

    I live about an hour north of NYC these days ( I also keep a place in NYC, I love NYC so much, its an incredible city. ), but my main home and business is based in a town of very intelligent, very smart, artsy, farmers, ect of about 7,000 people, I've only been here 3 years, and we all know each other. Im known as the guy who " owns that big business campus off **** street and married that a really cool french girl ", according to the guys in the diner I go to every morning before I head into work.

    Its an INSANE town, lots of history, organic family farmers, engineers and businessmen like me, artists, comics, Hispanics, and we have a small manufacturing base, which I help build as well these days.

    its awesome :)

    Sounds EXACTLY like Pittsburgh PA, Tallahassee FL, or Madison Wisconsin
     
  23. Arran macrumors 68040

    Arran

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    #24
    "Thrillas from Camilla"

    Made me smile.
     
  24. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #25
    In looking at this question, we must consider the case of West Virginia, which seceded from Virginia as a consequence of the conflict. There was also a secession-secession movement in East Tennessee, which probably would have been upheld in an orderly secession process, perhaps to annex into Kentucky. It seems likely that Missouri would have split as well (it is hard to imagine the home of Samuel Clemens being in a slave state).
     

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