If you are what Rush calls a liberal, read this...

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by paulbaker, Feb 19, 2008.

  1. paulbaker macrumors regular

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    #1
    I respect all people, even socialist liberals, even though I completely don't understand your way of thinking. Now , what does this have to do with iPhone you ask. Well, I love Apple for the creative company that it is, even though we are on different sides of the political isle... and it is easy to do because I am looking for Apple to be my creative leader, not my political or social leader (for pinheads).

    Okay, here is the relevant link. It liberals in our government that have been looking the other way and wants to go around the world apologizing for our success and innovation... it makes me puke (Obama and Clinton supporters) and here is why:
    http://sanjose.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2008/02/18/daily1.html?b=1203310800^1592736&ana=e_abd
     
  2. eji macrumors 6502

    eji

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    #2
    What on earth does this have to do with conservative or liberal politics?

    There's a iPhone black market in China. It cuts into Apple's profit. And?
     
  3. stomer macrumors 6502a

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    #3
    I laughed when I read: "I respect all people, even socialist liberals" :)

    Anyway, what does smuggling iPhone have to do with the price of tea in China?
     
  4. Phazotron Guest

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    #4
    What does this have to do with politics? China copies damn near everything we make. And?

    Unless you are trying to bring up the point that it was the Clinton administration that allowed China to have most favored trade nation status, and even then, do you think that any new administration will be able to close pandora's box?
     
  5. Much Ado macrumors 68000

    Much Ado

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    #5
    Funny that.
     
  6. Gelfin macrumors 68020

    Gelfin

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    #6
    You mean anyone more moderate than Mussolini?

    To the main point, this is what your people call the free market, a vibrant global economy, deregulation. Squelching this behavior would be interference, protectionism, big government, overregulation. Maybe you didn't get the memo, but if you are what Rush calls a "conservative" you are supposed to be on the "pro" side of this issue.

    If you think this activity is wrong and that the government should do something to prevent it, then perhaps you should consider not drawing your political lines as strictly as you seem to have done, because the two positions are inconsistent.

    Limbaugh is an entertaining performer, but he is not an especially deep political thinker. Short of suggesting you move all the way to the opposite extreme (in fact, I would not recommend it) you would do well to think for yourself.
     
  7. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #7
    Rather bizarre post.

    If you're suggesting that illegal trade in iPhones is the sign of innovation and/or a healthy economy -- I don't know, how am I supposed to equate that with either conservative or liberal politics?

    I can tell you that politics had nothing to do with the success of the iPhone, and even if it did, Steve Jobs is hardly a conservative.

    I totally don't get the part about liberals in general, and Clinton and Obama supporters in particular, "apologizing" for success and innovation. How does that even make sense? :confused:

    Or is the fact that you mentioned Rush a clue? If you're using Limbaugh as your guide to how the world works, you're basing your beliefs on his bizarro pocket universe.
     
  8. paulbaker thread starter macrumors regular

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    It has everything to do with the way China bosses everyone around. They can do what the hell they want to with respect to thievery, Kyoto, or whatever else... Most on this forum are actually Apple fans, as am I, and i find it reprehensible that this is tolerated because liberals in government pander to China. No I don't mean start a war, so lets not get ridiculous, but China is the new bully, and everyone is placating... MSFT (which I dislike) and countless others including our government, energy companies, etc. have been robbed by china. Sure, no police department can stop theft on any scale, and I believe that private enterprise should take means to protect its own intellectual property abroad, however, it is this pandering that has gone on way too long (several decades) that has led China to believe it has the right to bully, steal, or whatever. It is the liberal (not specifically republican or democrat so much) that says it is OUR fault that China was behind technologically, and we can't blame them for finding a means to catch up with the west. Kind of like the rhetoric liberal speak that it is our fault for 9-11.
    Perhaps MR is the wrong forum for this, and I certainly do not wish to offend anyone. I merely came across this story, and thought it would spark some interesting debate.
     
  9. latergator116 macrumors 68000

    latergator116

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    #9
    What the hell are you talking about? :confused:
     
  10. gauchogolfer macrumors 603

    gauchogolfer

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    #10
    Too late, methinks.

    How exactly have we 'allowed' China to steal our intellectual property? Are you suggesting that China is not a sovereign nation, and should have laws imposed on it from outside agencies?
     
  11. kuebby macrumors 68000

    kuebby

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    #11
    What are you talking about?

    There's a reason the iPhone market in China is called a grey-market and not a black-market.

    It's because it's not illegal.
     
  12. paulbaker thread starter macrumors regular

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    #12

    Excellent reply. I think you half get my point. I think gov't should provide basic services and then butt the hell out of private business. Protection is a basic service. Companies that choose risk should face the risk when the tide turns. However, it is clear that China poses a sever security threat. Not just with iPhones, but in energy and various ways. China is the new 800 pound gorilla that everyone is afraid of and it is only getting worse. Apple clearly has expressed an interest in the burgeoning China market, and perhaps it is too risky after all. My point here is gov't. (local up to fed) should focus on key issues and let the markets take care of themselves. So, yes I agree with you. My "beef" is that when members of our government express that it is our fault that China has to steal _____, therefore we must accept that we are chided by others because of our successes.
     
  13. paulbaker thread starter macrumors regular

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    #13
    I understand. My daughter accidentally left her gym locker open which resulted in the theft of her brand new iTouch. A free-market risk on her part, she failed to take personal responsibility in that instance and she suffered the risk.

    HOWEVER: THE THEFT OF THE DAMN THING IN F'N WRONG NO MATTER WHO TOOK THE DAMN THING OR FOR WHAT REASON!

    When the coach has a good idea who did it, but does not want to "single them out" or make the feel bad, FOR COMMITTING A WRONG, there in-lies the same fundamental issue.
     
  14. paulbaker thread starter macrumors regular

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    #14
    So, you think think theft is okay by China, its a yes or no question.
     
  15. paulbaker thread starter macrumors regular

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    #15
    Regardless of political leanings:


    Should it be okay that China steals from us in countless ways without reproach because they think its okay? I feel that most liberals will excuse China or any one else for that matter.

    I say that it is damn wrong.
     
  16. paulbaker thread starter macrumors regular

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    #16
    No, we already have our own soveriegnty laws that don't violate the sovereignty of other nations....

    Well, here is one example:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/feb/12/spacetechnology.china

    Not one of you, has come out and said, "What China does is wrong." Why not?
     
  17. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #17
    As regard China, I can't think of one single liberal I've met, read or watched on TV who would say such a thing.

    9/11 is a whole different ballgame. I want to emphasize that no liberal would say that we caused that. But there are several things we did that contributed to and/or failed to prevent it.
     
  18. Gelfin macrumors 68020

    Gelfin

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    #18
    Need to tread carefully here. The position of a great number of Internet libertarians and other small-government advocates ends up boiling down to, "when the government defends my rights against other people, that's protection, but when the government defends other people's rights against me, that's interference." This is an attitude that has become so prevalent I personally can no longer identify myself as libertarian even with a small L because it leads others to make bad assumptions about my leanings.

    It's unclear whether you're edging into this kind of hypocrisy, but whenever someone on the rightish side of the spectrum starts talking about what kinds of market regulations the government should provide and it turns out to be some issue important to them personally I get a little suspicious.

    Well, understand I'm partially playing devil's advocate here, since, again, what I'm giving you is a rather doctrinaire right-wing economic position, but it really isn't clear that it is wrong, at least legally. The article you linked uses strongly loaded terms like "smuggling" and "lost revenue," but those terms are a little misleading. No one stole the iPhones. They were purchased. No law can require a purchaser of an iPhone to activate it. Anyone is welcome to take it home, put it on a shelf, toss it in a blender or, indeed, mail it to China. The physical phone is a product. Once you buy it, you own it, and may do with it as you please.

    The software is licensed, but the license is a contract executed under the laws of the United States, a contract which was never agreed to by any United States person. It's difficult enough to fully enforce a contract of adhesion within the appropriate jurisdiction; impossible in another country absent a treaty establishing the terms by which such enforcement will be conducted. This is what gauchogolfer meant when referring to China's sovereignty. The laws governing the license agreement are simply not in force there.

    International trade can be a rough business. There is certainly an element of coercion here. Apple loses subscription revenue with the gray market distribution, but this is not the most favorable solution from the Chinese perspective either. Notice that customers are paying a premium for gray market iPhones. If Apple can negotiate a deal with a Chinese distributor, they can absolutely beat the gray market price, benefitting everyone. The coercion comes in because the lost subscription revenue encourages Apple to be a little more flexible when negotiating terms with a prospective Chinese partner. The weaker bargaining position may mean Apple makes less money per iPhone, but still more than they derive from the gray market phones.

    The "analyst" claims that Apple will lose $1bn on these gray market phones is a little suspect, along the same lines as RIAA claims about losses that assume every downloaded song is a lost purchase. There is no shortage of iPhones. Those who want them can get them, so without the gray market, Apple simply would have sold 1.3 million fewer units. If Apple are selling the iPhone hardware at a loss, then making it up with a cut of subscriptions from AT&T, then that is a calculated business risk they took, and there are any number of ways it might have gone wrong, and frankly, an overseas gray market is the sort of predictable thing their estimates should account for.

    The thing is, from a strict Reaganomics-legacy perspective, all this is completely kosher, and in principle rather than whining to the government that the market isn't fair the participants should toughen up and get ready to play hardball. I'm not saying China is playing nice, and the question of whether they are big, scary and menacing is another topic altogether, but expecting the government to make sure everyone in any given market plays nice is most assuredly not a facet of modern right-wing economics.

    If you're asking if I'd rather China not do this, then I can say unequivocally yes, I would prefer they did not. Setting up an international trade framework to prevent it is a much bigger task, and a very tricky thing to manage even from the moderate-to-left-wing perspective that says this is the business of government at all.
     
  19. abijnk macrumors 68040

    abijnk

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    #19
    Psst, multi-quote is your friend. Click the quote button with the + sign on all the posts you want to quote, then click the reply button and all the posts you selected will be quoted into your post. It creates a lot of work for the mods when you have 5 consecutive posts.

    Back to the matter at hand... First of all, the iPhone has made its way into several countries where it isn't 'officially' supported. This is from people buying iPhones outside of the country and unlocking them to work on another network. This is not the government of those countries stealing our technology as you are so quick to imply. If the US government felt that there was a technology in the iPhone that other countries shouldn't have then they would be regulated as 'export controlled' items and someone would be getting in trouble if they got in the hands of someone they shouldn't. (Yes, I know it is export controlled since it is an electronic device, but it isn't as stringent on the iPhone as the OP would like us to believe).

    Second, the espionage that is talked about in the article you linked hasn't got a thing to do with the iPhone. Is espionage wrong? Duh... Is China the only country who attempts to spy on us? NO!!!!! I can't speak about one of the cases, but in regards to the Boeing employee arrested in California, we aren't talking about Boeing Commercial Airplanes (BCA) here... We are talking about Integrated Defense Systems (which is the bulk of their California work). That is satellites (yes, military satellites too), fighter jets, Phantom Works, etc etc etc. Not even close to a shiny little gadget that people think is really neat to play with (i.e. the iPhone).

    I don't know if your ideas all came from Rush, but i would highly recommend not only reading these articles and other related material for yourself, but actually attempting to form your own ideas about them as well.

    EDIT: Gelfin, very well written post, I think you've pretty much summed up everything. :)
     
  20. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #20
    Who's saying that?

    You would be wrong.


    What are you trying to say?
     
  21. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #21
    Stop listening to Rush and start thinking for yourself. He's a clown, not an intellectual.

    China is not a good place. And Clinton was wrong when he gave favored nation status- very wrong.
     
  22. stomer macrumors 6502a

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    #22
    And the USA has done exactly what they want with respect to surveillance, Kyoto, and the Geneva Convention. What's the problem?

    If the US has a problem with IP theft, then they can make the claim to the WTO (they already have). Simple. Even if the WTO doesn't act in favour of the US, I wouldn't worry, the level of China's IP theft will decrease with time. Until, eventually, the boot will be on the other foot.
     
  23. eji macrumors 6502

    eji

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    #23
    Gelfin, you're much too rational to waste your time on this thread. But I do thank you for being so steadfastly calm, diplomatic and articulate in the face of Mr. Baker's accusations that the liberals are responsible for siphoning Americans' hard-earned cash to China, stealing from his daughter, weeing in the swimming pool, slashing the tires on his car and God knows what else.
     
  24. paulbaker thread starter macrumors regular

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    #24
    Let me state the obvious:
    1. I concede that I started this thread half-cocked and failed to internalize what I wanted to say before spouting off.
    2. Gelfin: I agree with you 100%, thanks for providing me with some insight.
    3. abiyng87: I appreciate your comments.
    4. eji: obviously I am not as intellectual as you are.
    5. Screw this country. Go China!
     
  25. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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