Illegals vote, period.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Zombie Acorn, Oct 26, 2014.

  1. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #1
    Many liberals have said we can't put voter ID laws in until we have proof that illegals vote, but at the same time they are also reluctant to investigate the issue without first proving that it is an issue.

    Conservatives have been convinced that democrats are reluctant to further investigate because these votes are all going to the blue side.

    Well here you go:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/25/illegal-voting-non-citizens-may-be-giving-democrat/

    http://projects.iq.harvard.edu/cces/home
     
  2. Michael Goff macrumors G4

    Michael Goff

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    #2
    And Photo IDs apparently didn't prevent it, according to your link.

     
  3. zin Suspended

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    #3
    There are a couple of logical issues with this article.

    Firstly, it's an article in The Washington Times. Enough said.

    Secondly, the actual study does not present a good case for voter ID laws if the figures are to be believed.

    In most voter ID states, there is a hefty penalty arising from criminal prosecution, not to mention it is a federal crime for non-U.S. citizens to vote in federal elections. In a few states it is a minor penalty but for most it is major.

    According to the DHS, there are about 11.5 million illegal immigrants living in the U.S. (from 2012 data). The article states that, for the 2010 elections, the voter turnout for this demographic was 2.2%, therefore if the study and article are to be believed, roughly 250,000 fraudulent votes were cast by illegal immigrants living in the U.S. (in the 2010 elections).

    Now let's write a few things we know:

    • Not all illegal immigrants live in Democratic states.
    • Republican states would generally be expected to enforce their voter ID laws more vigorously.

    Considering that the article and study appear to show that about 250,000 fraudulent votes were cast in the 2010 election, and not all of these were cast in blue/Democratic states, it is an absolute astonishing fact that nobody here can post any evidence of even a fraction of these persons being prosecuted.

    You are trying to tell me that with 250,000 fraudulent votes and voter ID laws being the spotlight, that no state has been able to prosecute even a fraction of these? Come on, prosecuting even a few of these could sway public opinion to support these laws.

    100 prosecutions is equal to 0.04% of all fraudulent votes cast, and no state has even been able to meet this level of enforcement of laws already on the books?

    Something's fishy. Logic dictates that this study and article are bogus.
     
  4. iBlazed macrumors 68000

    iBlazed

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  5. Southern Dad macrumors 65816

    Southern Dad

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  6. zioxide macrumors 603

    zioxide

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    #6
    Flawed argument here. As Michael Goff indicates, most of the "illegals" who apparently voted had a photo ID anyways.

    So, trying to spin this here into an argument for in favor of Voter ID is flawed as he indicates your link says that Voter ID wouldn't do **** for at least three quarters of these apparent cases.

    If someone shows up to the polls with a photo ID and is registered to vote, they get to vote. Photo IDs don't say if you're a US citizen unless it's a passport.

    Seems like you guys should be caring more about requiring people prove citizenship (like an I-9 verification form for work) during the voter registration process rather than requiring a photo ID to vote.

    Typical America.. solutions looking for problems to score political points while ignoring the actual problems!
     
  7. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #7
    The Times article in the second paragraph says that the source of their information is the Washington Post. Following that link to the source takes you to a Washington Post blog, Monkey Cage.

    Anybody interested in facts would be far better served to read that whole blog and not the Times selective editing of it.

    While the Times article did mention this finding ...

    I couldn't help but see they left out this part ...

    I hadn't really given that option proper consideration. They just might have something there.
     
  8. sviato macrumors 68020

    sviato

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    #8
    If the States won't stop "illegals" from coming in then there's no reason they shouldn't vote if they're living there.
     
  9. Zombie Acorn thread starter macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #9
    The research was done by CCES, Washington times was merely reporting on it.
     
  10. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #10
    Correction. Polling (data gathering) was done by CCES.

    The research on that data was done by Jesse Richman, Associate Professor of Political Science and International Studies at Old Dominion University, and David Earnest, Associate Professor of Political Science and International Studies at Old Dominion University.

    Their study can be found here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261379414000973

    Yes, the Washington Times merely reported on it ... and did their normally poor job of it.
     
  11. Southern Dad macrumors 65816

    Southern Dad

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    #11
    When states try to stop illegals or take action the federal government sues them.
     
  12. sviato macrumors 68020

    sviato

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    #12
    Then let them vote, they're living there like other Americans and are affected by the policies of those who are elected.
     
  13. Southern Dad macrumors 65816

    Southern Dad

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    #13
    Interesting idea. Let those that broke our laws to get into this country, vote.
     
  14. Michael Goff macrumors G4

    Michael Goff

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    #14
    Huh?
     
  15. Don't panic, Oct 26, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2014

    Don't panic macrumors 603

    Don't panic

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    #15
    i disagree here, there is an in principle issue of legality, and the question of taxes.

    i think it should be:
    - Illegal residents (who also do not fully pay taxes): no voting rights
    - Legal residents (who pay taxes): Local (and possibly State) voting rights
    - Citizens: local, State and Federal voting rights
     
  16. thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

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    #16
    That is true, although it doesn't just refer exclusively to illegals.

    This can include people on work visas, legal residents, and any other form of non-citizen. Many of those people also have some kind of state issued ID, such as a driver's license. Looking at the back of mine it clearly states:


    back of license
    It doesn't mention or establish citizenship. How would that help if these people were able to successfully register.
     
  17. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #17
    Enough to swing a state or federal level election.
     
  18. steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #18
    Saying illegals never pay taxes is wrong. Quite often they are paid normally and have taxes and ss taken out but they never get it back it is a big boon to the government
     
  19. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 604

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    #19

    What about illegal residents who DO pay taxes?

    http://www.itep.org/pdf/undocumentedtaxes.pdf

    http://www.itep.org/immigration/#map
     
  20. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

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    When stopping them will disenfranchise fewer legal voters than the illegal voters it is stopping, which so far none of the attempts to stop it will do that.
     
  21. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #21
  22. Don't panic macrumors 603

    Don't panic

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    #22

    ok, i stand corrected on that part.
    It was poorly worded on my part (and yes, wrong as stated).

    I know there are some illegal residents who do pay some of the taxes, especially local and state, including sales taxes, gas taxes and so on.
    however, not all do and in general the tax input is a lot lower than it would be if they were legal.

    plus the 'legal' aspect still stands -as mentioned in the previous post- and so i stand by my position that "illegals" should not have voting rights as long as they are illegally on the country.
    that said, i am for comprehensive immigration reform.
    i amended the post to reflect this
     
  23. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 604

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    #23
  24. sviato macrumors 68020

    sviato

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    #24
    Well, the US isn't stopping the illegals from coming into the country (or doing a poor job getting rid of them since there are so many of them), and, like you said, the federal officials that you elect are suing to stop the states from doing anything, so, as inhabitants of the US and some as taxpayers, why not let them vote like the other inhabitants of the country?
     
  25. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #25
    poor job of deporting? Seeing that this administration has deported more illegal immigrants than any other administration to date, please justify "poor job".

    BL.
     

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