In Europe, it's dangerous for Jews to wear their yarmulke

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by aaronvan, Jan 14, 2016.

  1. jerwin macrumors 65816

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    #2
    The yarmulke is the Jewish Hijab. Discard it and become French.
     
  2. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #3
    I'm more concerned with a Kurdish boy claiming allegiance to the IS. Where have the parents gone wrong? lol
     
  3. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #4
    But however bad it is, you have to admit that French Jews, and most Jews living in Europe today, are better of than say 75 years ago.
     
  4. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #5
    Could you imagine if some american said that about blacks or women. Holy **** storm! Yes, the fact that they are not being tossed in an oven is a step in the right direction.
     
  5. Khalanad75 macrumors 6502

    Khalanad75

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    #6
    Wow. Just wow. They should be happy they aren't being herded and gassed. Never thought about it that way. Hell if they keep that happy thought with them, they can never have a downer day.

    "How was you day, son?"

    "It was great mom, I got attacked by a machete.... but at least I didn't get put in the gas chamber."
     
  6. Scepticalscribe, Jan 14, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2016

    Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #7
    Or 175 years ago, or 275 years ago, or 500 years ago…

    Agreed.

    Again, the wild over-reaction and hyperbolic tone of the posts that follow yours massively miss the point that for much of Europe's history in the past 1,000 years Jews were at best barely tolerated, or were exiled, expelled, subject to compulsory conversion, or - killed outright - most recently by industrial scale mass murder.

    Guys, @Happybunny's point was - is - that in a modern, secular western European democracy - for Jews, and indeed, for women, other minorities, and, for that matter, for all men born outside of the tiny elite who comprised the aristocracy - life nowadays is an awful lot better than almost anything that preceded it.
     
  7. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #8
    On re reading I do see how in sensitive that came over, and for that I'm deeply sorry.

    What I was trying to get across was the way Jews have been handled in the past here in Europe was down to hatred, and these attacks are also based on hate.

    Multiculturalism is not the enemy of peace, hate is.
     
  8. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #9
    The old joke about how we are 'divided by a common language' seems apposite here.

    There is a wildness, and lack of nuance in the tone of much public discourse in the US, alas, one that doesn't leave much room for subtlety, or nuance.

     
  9. jerwin macrumors 65816

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    #10
    But at least they weren't forced to live in a multicultural society!
     
  10. Scepticalscribe, Jan 14, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2016

    Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #11
    Yes, but while it might have been more subtly expressed, most Europeans would have understood your post to be factual, not an attempt at apologising for or expressing racial hatred or sneering that European Jews should be grateful not to be slaughtered.

    Anyway, I agree with you. Intelligently and sensitively done, - with imagination, planning and foresight, not forgetting leadership - yes, multiculturalism is not the enemy of peace, (or progress) but (blind) hatred is.
     
  11. Eraserhead macrumors G4

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    #12
    Because getting to eat a decent Indian and a decent Thai meal is a terrible thing.
     
  12. LizKat macrumors 68040

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    #13
    I don't know how much of this has anything to do with attitudes towards diversity in general.

    Europe has its underlying problems with diverse cultures, just as do we in the US, but France as you must know has long had a serious problem with anti-Semitism and, separately, with its failure to assimilate resident descendants and immigrants from former North African colonies.

    That on top of the Charlie Hebdo murders and the more recent terrorist attacks in Paris plus current refugee influx from Syrian conflict all add up to some pretty heavy lifting for fans of multiculturalism in France (if there are many left at the moment).

    I've read that French Jews are debating in larger numbers now whether there is even a future for Jews any more in France, and that perhaps it's time to leave. This is since the attacks in Paris.

    Marine Le Pen didn't end up with quite the results she hoped for in the recent French elections but the further turn to the right was pretty noticeable there. Similarly in Poland, and now apparently also in Germany despite everything Merkel has tried to do (and Germany has done) in welcoming Muslm immigrants.

    Certainly global economic pressures don't help tamp down xenophobic reactions stirred up by whatever other excuse comes down the road.

    As far as the incident in Cologne... i don't know if terroristic attacks are the same as rejecting multiculturalism, exactly. ISIS is at bottom a bunch of despicable thugs so dressing them up with any extra motivations (or even granting them a throwback-to-caliphate motivation) strikes me as giving them way too much credit to begin with. Mobbing women sexually at a New Year's Eve celebration could be called diabolical or just plain disgusting. Reminded me of terrible experiences while riding the D train at rush hour in the late 60s, when women were just getting to the point of being perfectly willing to throw a public hissy fit over getting groped on the way to and from work every day. I am happy to say I was one of the "ladies" who saw zero benefit in tolerating sexual abuse or being "ladylike" while it occurred.
     
  13. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #14
    Depends on what happens a few hours after you eat. I've had some rough goes at it.
     
  14. VulchR macrumors 68020

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    #15
    According to ADL there were 36 assaults in the US in 2014 motivated by anti-semitism, including shooting incidents perpetrated by a right-wing nutter.

    Hail, intolerance.
     
  15. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #16
    Nothing says subtle like "Be glad you got whacked with a machete and not gassed to death"! The frequent expression "putting your foot in your mouth", seems to apply well here.
     
  16. jerwin macrumors 65816

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    #17
    Don't eat at the Indian equivalent of Arby's then?
     
  17. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #18
    Excellent and thoughtful post.

    However, I would add to that, the fact that ever since the Revolution, and the consequent collapse of the Ancien Regime, France has sought to define its sense of national identity - and even state identity - in strongly cultural terms, which is one of the reasons that conflicts on matters of perceived 'cultural identity' take on an especial resonance, edge and tension in that country.
     
  18. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #19
    Looked legit to me, there was no drive thru. lol
     
  19. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #20


    That is ridiculous.

    Jews are sometimes attacked here in the United States (the difference being, of course, that here the attackers can easily buy guns) - and women get groped and robbed in American cities too. By Baptists; Catholics; Jews; atheists and Hindus too, for all I know. Plenty of US military women get sexually assaulted by their own "comrades in arms" - which is a pretty disgusting commentary on the culture in some US military communities.

    You take a couple of isolated incidents and pretend they somehow represent the experience on an entire continent and culture. Thats absurd, and you know it.
     
  20. Renzatic Suspended

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    #21
    I've eaten Cajun food before without breaking (much) of a sweat. Spicy food isn't much of a problem for me.

    But the one time I ate Indian food? Hell, I'm surprised I still have an esophagus after that. I know India is know as the Land of a Thousand Spices, but good god, people, you don't have to use them all at once!
     
  21. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #22
    **** just wrecks you. As my 8yr old once put it the first time he had diarrhea (might have been 3 or 4), "Dad I'm peeing out of my butt".
     
  22. aaronvan thread starter Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #23
    "The the organized mass sexual assaults in Germany, Austia, Finland, Sweden, etc. are the same as women getting groped in America." That's a false equivocation, and you know it.

    Do you believe Rabbi Ammar is full of it? Perhaps he is, but the thousands of European Jews moving to Israel might not feel the same way.

    ...Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew...
     
  23. LizKat macrumors 68040

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    #24
    Point taken. It certainly seems to have become problematic for France to have declared Algeria a department of France before it saw the handwriting of Algerian sovereignty on the wall. In one way it was saying "You are part of France" to Algerians, but the implication was that an Algerian was French first, Algerian second the same way a guy from Provence is French first and Provençal second. However, the intention in Algeria was culturally suppressive. It was how one manages to make an overseas department progress towards looking and behaving like back home.

    When sovereignty was granted, however, there ended up two kinds of Algerians. In Algeria, you were suddenly... hmm... Algerian. If you were a pied-noir descendant or a Muslim Algerian who had taken France's side in the run-up to independence, you were whisked away and plunked down safely in France and you were... French, period.

    It wasn't quite the same for the Moroccans and Tunisians, who remained colonials until the colonies gained independence. If they emigrated to France, they were of course expected to become "French first" but they were still Moroccans or Tunisians second. With the Algerians it seems like they are not really allowed a core identity. They must be "French first" but they or their forebears had already been told they were French, period, back in the day.

    That sat variously with Algerians, pre-independence. Some bought into it, some did not and forced the move to Algeria as sovereign nation. How it sits with Algerians as immigrants to France now or descendants of those who fled the crumbling French overseas rule is pretty clear. They are French until it comes to trying to get a job or better housing and then they are the same as Moroccans or Tunisians, minorities looking for the table scraps. Last hired, first fired, the same as minorities in the USA can still experience.

    It's interesting that apparently the Vietnamese who fled to France have assimilated somewhat more successfully. I don't know if that points to racial or religious barriers to fitting in.

    In the USA one may still celebrate one's from-elsewhere heritage, even if some Americans are not fans of this fact. We can celebrate being Irish or Swedish or Puerto Rican and we throw parades and wave old-country flags along with the Stars and Stripes at such festivities. I don't hear anything about celebration of being "French first, other-ethnic second" in France, though. I confess to not knowing that it's frowned on or even forbidden.

    While being able to throw a party once a year over being from Algeria is hardly a fair trade for being skipped over for jobs and crammed into dismal housing in dismal rings around Paris proper, it's kind of too bad if no one even thinks to throw such a party. It's a way to allow some tribalism without encouraging xenophobia towards other tribes. It would be "French first, Algerian today" day... But meanwhile we see news not of parties but of the occasional riot at the train station that marks the barrier between the land of the French and that of the "French first". It's hard to figure out whether waving a French flag or an Algerian one would be the bigger offense out in those suburbs.

    I think it's hard to know a lot about any of this even if one keeps up with the news. Officially there's a lot of political correctness in France and unofficially there's lots of info laden with lots of agendas, just as we experience in the USA.

    It seems too bad to me that we can't take our multiculturalism comfortably from those fun days of taking tortillas or kuchen to first grade "World Food Day" or whatever, out into the world with us as we grow older. Why does jousting for jobs and housing have to drag us back to clannish ways where not only do I think having World Food Day is a bad idea, I never want to have to share workplace opportunities with people who cook tortillas or kuchen at home?
     
  24. Renzatic Suspended

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    #25
    Welllpp, this stew is looking a lot less appetizing than it was 5 seconds ago. :p
     

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