In modern times can you be a Nationalist without being racist and a fascist?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by darksithpro, Aug 19, 2017.

  1. darksithpro, Aug 19, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017

    darksithpro macrumors 6502

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    #1
    Merriam-Webster dictionary has two main categories for "Nationalism"

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationalist

    Definition of nationalist
    1. 1: an advocate of or believer in nationalism

    2. 2: a member of a political party or group advocating national independence or strong national government
    Nationalism being a sub category:

    Definition of nationalism
    1. 1: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness (see consciousness 1c) exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranationalgroups Intense nationalism was one of the causes of the war.

    2. 2: a nationalist movement or government opposing nationalisms
    Now, there are other racist sub forms of nationalism such as the KKK, NAZI's, communism and other white supremacist groups. But most of the groups originated from Nazi Germany and the Soviet bloc, not the US.

    Also patriotism:
    Definition of patriotism



      • : love for or devotion to one's country
    Communists, dictatorships, racial purity and extreme forms of religious beliefs can be extreme forms Fascism and racism. My question is though, can people be for National pride and patriotism, without the fear of being labeled a racist and a fascist in today's America?
     
  2. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #2
    First of all, you forgot to turn off the italics...to your point, many or even most Americans are Patriots and Nationalists - they just don't wear it on their sleeve, and they also know that pragmatism is sometimes better than ideology.
     
  3. T'hain Esh Kelch macrumors 601

    T'hain Esh Kelch

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    #3
    I do not see why they shouldn't be two different things. Being glad for your culture and be proud of the values it portrays has nothing to do with the hatred of specific races. Fascism is even further away from that IMHO.
     
  4. localoid macrumors 68020

    localoid

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    #4
    If humans can't evolve beyond this crap, then I'm going to have to root for the machines...
     
  5. darksithpro thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #5
    Beyond what exactly? Nationalism? Should we all be good, little globalists?
     
  6. localoid macrumors 68020

    localoid

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    #6
    Can you be a citizen of an earthbound island and not be a citizen of the planet?

    Geesh... it's like living in Feudal Times...
     
  7. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 604

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    #7
    In modern times can you be a Nationalist without being racist and a fascist?

    Not when you put the word "White" in front of Nationalist
    .
     
  8. darksithpro thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #8

    So, without "white" in front it's not racist then?
    --- Post Merged, Aug 19, 2017 ---

    Do you believe in borders? Do you believe in patriotism and American exceptionalism? I'm guessing not.
     
  9. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #9

    I think the bigger question is this: political ideologically speaking, can you be a Nationalist and a Republican?

    I ask that, because of the second definition of Nationalist:

    Bold for emphasis. If a Nationalist is for a strong national (federal) government, and a Republican ideologically speaking is for a limited government, the two ideologies conflict. You can't have a strong government and limited government at the same time. One will have to give way for the other.

    So if you had to choose, which one would you be: A nationalist, or a Republican?

    BL.
     
  10. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 604

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    #10
    It's a very gray area. The grayness in it all, is what people consider a nation.

    Personally, I don't think these White Nationalists live by the true definition of Nationalist. The reason they put the word White in front of Nationalist is because they think America is a white privileged country and they have absolute rights to it. But how can you honor the US Constitution and have that logic? You simply can't. White Nationalism is more about preserving the purity of the white race and power of the white race, rather than having any actual concern for USA as a nation.
     
  11. Zenithal macrumors 603

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    #11
    Yeah, it's called blind patriotism. General ignorance, but nothing as bad as the two aforementioned movements.
     
  12. darksithpro thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #12

    So, the men and women who served in the armed forces, who protected this nation, so you and me can speak today with impunity is practicing blind patriotism? Americans, who cherish the core values of our constitution and freedoms is also blind patriotism?
     
  13. Zenithal, Aug 19, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017

    Zenithal macrumors 603

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    #13
    Question for you: Do you ever read and try to understand what others say before posting? Your original question dealt with neo-Nazisim and white nationalism. My post was in reference to that; blind patriotism. There is patriotism and there's blind patriotism. They may sound the same to you, which wouldn't be surprising, but they're mutually exclusive.

    Here, let me take it down a notch so you can understand.

    Patriotism: The US is a great country that affords many opportunities to people from all walks of life. We offer many ways of helping the poor and the addicted turn their life around. We offer programs for low income people to gain access to university, etc. Of course, like any good country, we have plenty of faults. We actively work to rectify these faults.

    Blind Patriotism: The US is the best country ever. No country can remotely come close. The US has saved the ass of many countries in history. We know what's best for others and we're here to project our values on every nation, even established countries. I don't care if I'm a loud tourist who constantly boasts about America. Screw your little dippy European country.

    In the case of soldiers. From 9/11 until now, I've not felt safer or unsafer as a result of two massive wars. Arguably, more domestic and Islamic terrorism has occurred in the US in a post 9/11 world, even when pounding the Middle East into a glass stoneage, so to speak.

    Korean War, Vietnam, Gulf War had no real effect on Americans' inalienable rights.
     
  14. jpietrzak8 macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #14
    The Merriam-Webster dictionary also has this very fascinating note on nationalism:

    The difference between nationalism, patriotism, sectionalism, and jingoism
    Nationalism has a number of near-synonyms, each of which carries its own distinct meaning. Patriotism is similar insofar as it emphasizes strong feelings for one’s country, but it does not necessarily imply an attitude of superiority. Sectionalism resembles nationalism in its suggestion of a geopolitical group pursuing its self-interest, but the group in question is usually smaller than an entire nation. Jingoism closely resembles nationalism in suggesting feelings of cultural superiority, but unlike nationalism, it always implies military aggressiveness.​

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationalism

    For myself, I'd have to say it depends on what you mean by a "nation". If a nation is defined as a group of people bound together by a shared ideal, I would count myself as a nationalist. If it is defined merely as a group of people living on the same plot of land, or having a shared set of ancestors, or some other similar purely random form of grouping, I'd eschew nationalism.
     
  15. arkitect macrumors 603

    arkitect

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    #15
    I have to ask…

    What the hell is wrong with being a globalist?
    What is wrong with seeing the bigger picture?

    American exceptionalism?
    Ridiculous notion.
     
  16. Dagless macrumors Core

    Dagless

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    #16
    Some really perfect replies in this thread, yours being one of them. But now my curiosity wants to know why some people are against globalisation. You’d think that with the internet, cheap travel, and countries having different laws, histories, and cultures, that it makes sense to be “global”.
     
  17. Scepticalscribe, Aug 19, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017

    Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #17
    What type of nationalism do you mean?

    Take a look at what Eric Hobsbawm wrote on this very topic.

    He drew a distinction between two types of nationalism, which - initially at least - overlapped considerably. Historically, both had as a starting point (in the late 18th century, early 19th century when the idea of "the people" having a say in their own destiny and defining what they gave loyalty to - what we now call the 'nation state'), the idea that the nation and the state and the people were one.

    But, they divided on how to define what made 'the people'.

    Put briefly, this division was between those who thought what defined 'the people' - those who had the right of citizenship in this new nation-state - was rooted in stuff such as ethnicity, language, perhaps religion - stuff that differentiated this set of 'people' with their nation-state from another set of people.

    The other side of this division chose to define 'the people' - those entitled to call themselves citizens - in terms of rights, all who were citizens were to enjoy rights as citizens, - and all who were there had the right to call themselves citizens and the function of the state was to defend and uphold those rights.

    Essentially, according to Hobsbawm, a distinction was drawn between an exclusive and an inclusive sense of citizenship, and nationalism.

    So, to answer the question posed by the OP, if the sense of nationalism under discussion is based on an exclusive definition (our blood, our ethnicity, our language, our religion, our culture - and Not Theirs), yes, it tends to veer towards racism and fascism because how it defines itself is predicated on the existence of The Other.

    However, a version of nationalism that is inclusive - and defines itself as such - everyone who is here is a citizen - by right - and being a citizen is defined in terms of rights - tends to be a lot less likely to fall prey to the siren lure of fascism.
     
  18. BoneDaddy Suspended

    BoneDaddy

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    #18
    I smell a hint of utopian extremism. You really THINK, that all men, in all coulters, with countless differences and claims/grievances/etc. are just going to let it all go, or that they rightfully should have to?

    I'm not calling you crazy, but that idea seems insane to me, that imperfect man with certain natural instincts and prides should ever, 100% of them, drop all of that, just so people like you, could have your unrealistic paradise...

    I'm sure your idea of your perfect world, would disarm me. You'd have me TRUST, that "the world is perfect now, there is no need for a weapon", when any person, at any time can break from your idea and hurt me or my family.

    Do you people even think this crap through? Go ahead and "root for the machines", and although you'll deny it, what that clearly meant, was that you'd rather machines end mankind, then have a little imperfection. What about the children? You guys are ALWAYS using "the children" to further your power grabs... You want to abandon them now?

    NOT SURPRISED.

    I'm a nationalist and PROUD of it, but I can think of a man who had globalist ideals... HITLER.
     
  19. Zwopple macrumors regular

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    #19
    To the OP, I'd argue no -- to be a true nationalist you are somewhat a racist because you are beginning to think of yourself as "better" or more "exceptional" than others simply because where you were born.

    It's discrimination, albeit one that society still accepts.

    I'm in no way saying every single nation should open their borders, nor that you cannot be proud of your country but the notion that borders define your worth or your value to humanity and earth is disheartening.
     
  20. niploteksi macrumors regular

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    #20
    My understanding is that nationalism was mostly pushed on the people to make sure they wouldn't rise up against the ruling class. One of the major institutions for this was the education system. Thus, making education mandatory for everyone.
     
  21. jpietrzak8 macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #21
    Just to be pedantic here -- Hitler was very much a nationalist, and not a globalist. His entire philosophy was built around his interest in Germany; in the lands that the Germanic peoples occupied throughout time, and in the ethnic and racial makeup of the German peoples. He wanted "living room" for Germany, to be occupied by people with Germanic roots. His excuse when invading countries was always either to support some Germanic sub-group of the population, or to remove a "threat" to Germany itself. (And this was also his excuse for his various "ethnic cleansing" policies as well -- get rid of any non-Germanic peoples.)

    There was nothing at all globalist about Hitler's policies.
     
  22. niploteksi macrumors regular

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    #22
    Does communism really belong in that category? There can be no communism without a defined market or society, but it could just as well work with one global nation.
     
  23. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #23
    America Nationalist == racist

    Any other nation nationalist == culture.
     
  24. jpietrzak8 macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #24
    Er, what??? Nationalism (at least among European polities) appeared more-or-less towards the end of the Renaissance, when the printing press and the rediscovery of Greek philosophical treatises on self-government made the discussion of what exactly a "state" should be a popular topic of discussion. The entire series of revolutions that began in the late eighteenth century (kicked off, more or less, by the American revolution) all involved throwing off the yoke of the monarchs and coming up with a completely different (usually, more democratic) form of government.

    Nationalism has been the watchword of almost every attempt to rise up against the ruling class.

    EDIT: By the way, just gotta plug Mike Duncan's excellent podcast on modern revolutions:

    http://www.revolutionspodcast.com/

    --- Post Merged, Aug 19, 2017 ---
    Oh, come on. Plenty of other nations' nationalists have been far more racist than America's nationalists. ;)
     
  25. BoneDaddy Suspended

    BoneDaddy

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    #25
    It's highly debated. I used to think he was a nationalist as well, and I wouldn't blame him, but after having a conversation about this over a year ago, with a good friend. I looked into the topic.

    Surprisingly, as stated, he had globalist ideals and there is debate on it. Some state passages from "Mein Kampf".

    Nothing at all wrong with being a nationalist, is all I really care to stress, in this thread. It's ridiculous to consider that racist.
     

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