Is Apple falling behind?

Discussion in 'General Mac Discussion' started by Datazoid, Apr 15, 2003.

  1. Datazoid macrumors regular

    May 10, 2002
    No, I dont mean in processor speed, I mean in "innovation" and features: the rest of the world gets to enjoy things like this, this, this, this, this, or this. Obviously, some of these aren't the nicest looking design-speaking, but its the concept that matters. What happened to "the digital hub" - all we have to show for it is a measly MP3 player, while the rest of the world gets what we were promised. Empty promises is all they turned out to be, it seems.
  2. markjones05 macrumors 6502a


    Jan 15, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    if you want some gawdy monstrosity go for it.
  3. iJon macrumors 604


    Feb 7, 2002
    well lets put it this way, tivo has already come out with things that do that stuff already. phillips is working on tech to work with macs that will do that stuff too. rumors have it that apple is working on tablet pc's, which will probably blow away the competition, those vaios are ugly and not anything special over an imac. if you want those things then yes, apple isnt innovative, and whats so special about that abs machine, cnet said it was a bitch to use.

  4. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus


    Oct 5, 2001
    San Diego, CA
    Meanwhile, PCs are just now going DVD-R, Firewire, 802.11b and legacy-free while Macs have been for years.

    Windows XP Media Edition is just another attempt by MS to extend their reach even further into people's lives and pocketbooks.
  5. Datazoid thread starter macrumors regular

    May 10, 2002
    Like I said, the point isnt what it looks like, its the fact that these companies are changing what computers can do. I don't care about rumors about who's going to do something in the future, my question was if they were falling behind now, not if Apple would be in 3 years where PCs are now. Yeah, Tivo has stuff for Macs and PCs, and thats great...if you have (or want) a Tivo. My question is...why hasn't Apple developed anything like this? Where is the digital hub? What is Apple's vision? Im not saying these PC's are "good"...Im just saying that they are pushing thresholds, creating new uses of computers, while Apple's computers are relatively stagnant. Is it impossible to criticise Apple? I never said I "want some gaudy monstrocity"...but it would be nice to see SOMETHING new come out of Apple. What about their current computers is innovative? Again, I have no interest in PCs, I've already completely switched to Macs (for two years now)...but purely because I find the software easier to use. I just don't see them pushing the envelope much these days. Maybe I'm just not seeing things clearly, or maybe its "Not Invented Here" all over again...

    Just as Apple is with their upcoming music service, right? Isn't that every companies goal? Or is that OK, because its Apple...

    And phones, and PDAs, and DVR's, and "HomePod"....and not one of them has happened. Even one would shut me up.....I just want to see something new and innovative out of Apple, and since the iPod, there hasn't been anything. (Larger screen sizes and new case designs for existing computer lines do not count, I mean a completely new product, as those described above.

    But isn't that the point...Apple has an opportunity to blow away the competition right now....and quite frankly, they aren't. The software works well, and the computers look good....they just don't do as much as they could, IMO. I'm willing to bet that if Apple came out with any one of these things tomorrow, in some kind of modified form, obviously, you all would be jumping up and down singing its praises. But when its a PC, it doesnt matter what it can do, it sucks, right? No idea is good enough unless it comes directly from the almighty Apple, right?

    *Dons flame-protective gear* Don't call me an M$ fanboy, cuz I'm far from it, I just want to know what is so innovative about Apple computers now.
  6. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus


    Oct 5, 2001
    San Diego, CA
    Your question has already been adressed, dude. Current PCs are just now picking up on Apple's tech from yesteryear. Innovations today, IMO, are Bluetooth, 802.11g, zeroconf/Rendezvous, Quartz Extreme, and Apache on everything from client to server.

    BTW, the Apple music service is still just a rumor, and no-where near XP Media Edition.
  7. iJon macrumors 604


    Feb 7, 2002
    apple is in a position where they have to make a lot of their own stuff, since other people wont, and a lot of the things you showed us arent very hot items. sure the pc has come stuff like that, but on the other hand, who is buying that stuff, i doubt very many. it's all opinions.

  8. nuckinfutz macrumors 603


    Jul 3, 2002
    Middle Earth
    I don't see it. I see nothing in the links you've provided which fundamentally change the way computers are used. I see no Killer apps that a Tablet can do over a Powerbook other than direct handwriting(slow)

    I see Media Center products that look unfinished(not enough networking) I see "cute" computers running the same ole boring Windows OS.

    I think what you fail to see is that Apple doesn't rush into things until they can make a product that lives up to their standard. Referencing "Not Invented Here" is foolish. Considering many of Apples new Technologies are based on Open Source technologies. You seem to be spouting propaganda from the late 90s here.

    This is the typical tantrum that people throw. They want to prove that Appe is not Innovative so they point out what Apple does NOT do. Thats fair. All I know is that with no prior experience Apple entered the MP3 market and now has the #1 unit.

    Apple is not in the Phone or PDA market now because they might not view it as an excellent opportunity. I'm fine with that. I want to know that Apple is jumping into areas for the "right" reasons. We don't need another Pippin.

    The Building Blocks are easy to see. Apple has spread wireless networking capability across their lines. The next battle is making networking easy as Plug and Play without the need for a Server....OH! What's this? Rendezvous.

    Apple is building the infrastructure in their products to enable new Apps that "truly" exceed the current Threshold of computing. The current items we see are not ready IMO. Media devices need to be well connectedd with Wired/Wireless connectivity. They need to support multiple Codecs and datatypes. The UI needs to be clean and functional. Interoperability is a MUST. If the items you have linked met most of these requirements they wouldn't be buried on some webpage and they'd be used right now in alot of homes. As of today...they're not.
  9. trebblekicked macrumors 6502a


    Dec 30, 2002
    Chicago, IL, USA
    digital hub.

    to me, that means one thing that makes other things more productive. not a series of things that come packaged or branded by apple. does belkin manufacture your usb devices as well as your hub?

    The mac, USB, Firewire, airport, rendevous, bluetooth, OSX, iLife, and 3rd party integration are what make the digital hub work. We're in the middle of the strategy, not the end.

    And it's a pretty good middle, i'd say. imovie does a better job of recognizing which DV cam i use than FCP. iphoto recognizes most digital cameras and makes it easy to use a computer to organize and publish them. the ipod rocks, you covered that. idvd is idiot proof, and now with version 3, it's actually pretty atractive, too. rendevous makes netrowrking easy, airport makes wireless simple. you can go out and buy eyetv or something like it for television, if you have a tivo, you can use that on your mac.

    yeah, there is much left to do, but this strategy is little over a year old, right? give it some time. i'd love to see a mac tablet, or a PDA, but it's not like we're hurting for things to do with our macs, and it's definately not that windows has put out anything better. that windows media center thing? yeah, i bought one the first time around when it was called a gateway destination. it sucked then, and it sucks now.

    If apple can stay on top of support; that is make sure that the latest and greatest accessories can be used on a mac, they will be furthering the digital hub idea. why should they waste time and money developing accesories that the 3rd party world is more than fit to?
  10. MacCoaster macrumors 6502a


    Jul 15, 2002
    Washington, DC / Rochester, NY / Lexington, NC
    Current PCs *just* now picking up on Apple's tech from yesteryear?

    I'm sorry, you're outright wrong. Bluetooth has been available on PC and Mac for the same time, BT is not Apple's technology.

    Same goes for 802.11* and DVD-R. Hell, I could have built a PC with DVD-R.

    zeroconf/Rendezvous have been available on UNIX/Windows before Rendezvous from Apple. Hardly innovative.

    Quartz Extreme, you just have it because you NEED it to have a productive OS without the lag. And several implementations of QE have been here before, just different types, etc.

    Firewire, the only innovative thing out of Apple in a long time. GREAT Bus interface. Intel includes it in their latest chipset, not surprisingly!

    Apache on both client and server. How is that EVEN innovative? Microsoft had IIS/Personal Web Server available for 98/2000/XP long before Mac OS X.

    Therefore, the only thing out of Apple that is truly innovate: Firewire. It rocks.

    edit: oh, by the way, legacy stuff can be GOOD, because some EE students need to use serial interfacing to control things
  11. AppleLogicX macrumors newbie

    Apr 18, 2003
    Hello, I am new to Mac Rumors, however, I am not new to Apple Macintosh Computer nor other computers. I would like to say I agree w/ ever single thing "MacCoaster" said in his last post.

    But I have a few addenda to add to his post.

    Sure, Apple has been innovative in making a "Neato" looking case that is slick as a hell. The process for making such a good is expencive and inefficient, and the design doesn't give for a more productive cause, therefore the need for that design is NULL. Without that, Apple could simply lower the cost of their computer. Shame they have to make it look sexy to sell a few.

    I won't even start on the fact Apple Still uses Motorola after the 550MHz Fiasco. Personally, as a business man, a supplement to my company that dramatically fails, gets summarily dismissed.

    And let me make this point... Apple Computers are good for what they where origionally intended, Home Use, except for the simple fact, THEY ARE TOO EXPENSIVE for that! If Apple wanted to sell to schools, they need to lower their prices, to some R&D, because the schools, under the government, are therefore in an accounting deficient, therefore, Schools aren't able to buy the computers they want or need for their students.

    Macs for Studio production, well, I'm not familiar with that area enough to become involved in a discussion over it, but on a speculative view, I think they are great for the video production industry, in some cases.

    Also, the new iMacs, UGH, what a failure! Although not really a failure to the periodic Mac buyer, it's a failure to me when I look back on past macintosh products. When you can't upgrade the computer, then I have trouble buying it, or even looking at it at all! But don't get me worng, I like laptops for what they're made for, portable computing, that's it. The eMac, also a complete failure, in the same since w/ the iMac. Shoot, I was even able to upgrade my Power Macintosh 9600 to a dern G4 800Mhz Power Macintosh, well, the iMac could never do that, and still won't today (I'm talking about the pre flat pannel iMacs.)

    I thank you for your time, and have a good day!

    Christian R. Severt
  12. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus


    Oct 5, 2001
    San Diego, CA

    Did I say that PCs don't have these things at all? No.

    My intention was to demonstrate technology that Apple has integrated and made standard on all of it's products.

    Show me PC laptops with integrated Bluetooth.
    Show me PC laptops and desktops with 802.11 built-in from 2 years ago.
    Show me PCs with Firwire built-in from 3 years ago.
    Show me PCs with DVD-R built-in from a year ago.
    Does Windows XP Home have a web server in it? No.

    We're talking mass distribution/consumption here; consumer technology in consumer's hands. Not hobbyists on the bleeding edge.
  13. MacCoaster macrumors 6502a


    Jul 15, 2002
    Washington, DC / Rochester, NY / Lexington, NC
    BT with Laptops: They've had it long before the AlBooks, various manufacturers.
    I can't exactly prove PCs from two years ago, but I've seen and swear by it. We were looking for replacement computers for my Mom and we had already bought a wireless base station. So we just bought a PC card and got over it.
    PCs with Firewire: Sony. They've had it for a loooong time, under the name of i.Link.
    PCs with DVD-R: Sony again. In fact, they had it on the laptop BEFORE Apple.
    Windows XP Home w/ IIS. Okay, who cares? The majority of people use Home for nothing else than web surfing, e-mail, games and don't need IIS/Apache (like most of Mac users, they don't need Apache, hence it's not installed/enabled by default). But, most professionals who would depend on IIS/Apache isntalled locally would have XP Pro, which does have IIS.
  14. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus


    Oct 5, 2001
    San Diego, CA
    A link would be nice.

    Again a link would be nice. And PC cards don't count unless they come bundled with, and even then, that's not the same as internal.

    Consumer machines? 6-pin ports? Didn't think so.

    When did desktop PCs from a major manufacturer first start including DVD-Rs?

    XP Pro has it? Where? Didn't see that on the feature list, and it's sure as heck not installed on any of the 40+ machines here at my work.

    Anyway, you missed my whole point about Apple getting this tech into consumers' hands directly in both the OS and the hardware. Wintels have the stuff, yes, but manufacturers like Dell, HP, etc are pretty slow in implementing it. Sony is ahead of the curve, as far as Wintel's go, I'll freely admit that, but they're following Apple a lot more than they're leading.
  15. jxyama macrumors 68040


    Apr 3, 2003
    Wow, it's getting rather hostile here... :D

    Back in the day, Sony "invented" Walkman and transister radio. The technology needed to make both had been available for some time but Sony actually made them accessible to the general public and those "inventions" are now party of their legacy... You don't have to invent the technology to be innovative.

    Being able to do something is not the same as being able to purchase/build that something. You could buy and build Firewire/DVD-R, etc. into PCs quite some time ago. However, Apple is the first company to make those technologies available, right out of the box for general consumption. No techy knowledge or fat wallet required.

    Apple is more expensive... Sure. BMW is more expensive than a Honda too.

    Some of the things listed on the original post do look cool, but I wouldn't say the lack of equivalent things for Macs indicate the lack of innovation from Apple. While 95% of computers are PCs, I can't really think of anything I feel like I'm missing since switching to a Mac. Let's see if PC world will have something substantial (widespread and affordable) that Mac users would be envious of in a few years... Yeah, iPod is cool and more things like that from Apple would be nice. But I don't think Apple lagging behind...

    I know my gf is jealous that my 12" came with an internal antenna for WiFi while she has to deal with the wireless networking card sticking out from her Dell.
  16. MacCoaster macrumors 6502a


    Jul 15, 2002
    Washington, DC / Rochester, NY / Lexington, NC
    Like I said, I couldn't prove about 802.11x, but it's not Apple's own technology and they weren't the only one pushing it. I still swear by shopping around there were a few. We ended up buying a separate card because Mom didn't need a new laptop, so it saved us more money. Bluetooth... Toshibas, Dells, etc. had them (BT). In fact, go to Toshiba's portables page and go to Portégé 3500, its a tablet PC released last year that includes BT. Their other laptops have it as well.

    Yes, consumer machines from Sony had i.Link. I'll give you 6-pin port, I mean, FW is great, it's from Apple. The ONLY innovative thing out of Apple in a long time.

    I'm not sure when DVD-Rs came out on consumer PCs; definitely they were being sold on high end PCs, just like Superdrives were first on high end Macs, sure iMac G4 might have had it "first" but who really cares. People would buy them on PCs as well. Again, like I said, Sony got DVD-R first on the laptop, not Apple.

    XP Pro has it, yes. Go to Add/Uninstall Programs, click on Windows Components, and find IIS there. I have IIS installed on my XP Pro just fine.
  17. jayscheuerle macrumors 68020


    They've never been ahead!

    Sure, Apple may be the first to "integrate" components, but you can add these to a PC without buying a new system!

    Screw bluetooth and airport extreme! That's like the value of adding a GPS device on your machine. Apple doesn't innovate where it counts? raw performance (processor, bus speeds, caches).

    Apple is to computers as the Mini-Cooper is to automobiles. Cute and stylish, but not so fast...

    Let's hope the next generation of machines changes that!!!
  18. nuckinfutz macrumors 603


    Jul 3, 2002
    Middle Earth
    Please just stop while you're ahead. You've already made of big enough fool out of yourself. It's obvious that you cannot back up one damn you've said. Give it a rest.

    Which is it? Had Apple not had Bluetooth or 802.11G you would be whining about that too. Give credit where credit it due. Mac user had Wireless Tech before PC. Mac users have Acclerated GUI functions using their AGP cards first. Mac users have a working Zeroconf config working before PC. Hell man the Software is the hard part Processor Speed, Bus speed etc can be implented quickly. You may think this is where "It counts" but people that actually use their computer to work value Software that runs correctly. The slowest part in the Workflow is generally the person sitting behind the keyboard.
  19. jayscheuerle macrumors 68020


    Maybe from your chair, but I spend far too much time waiting on my machine. :D

    Beachballs be DAMNED!!

    The wireless stuff does nothing for me personally, neither at home, nor at work. I sit down at the machine, attempt to get the machine to keep up with me for a few hours, and then get back to life. A machine that I wait for is wasting my time and since time is all we really have, it's wasting my life. Apple needs focus. Motorolla may have jerked them around, but if Apple wants to play with the big boys, they need to have backup plans so that they don't fall so far behind. They've been irresponsible to their customers. - j
  20. tazo macrumors 68040


    Apr 6, 2003
    Pacific Northwest, Seattle, WA actually
    except both cars willl get you where you want to go the same way. you just have to decide if its worth the extra $10k to get to where you have to go the same way.

    btw in case i still need to draw the diagram apple is bmw :cool:
  21. sawaguchishinji macrumors member

    Feb 5, 2003
    Under what name? Rendezvous allows to make a network without a server to deliver ip addresses to everyone. And it works with computers and peripherals.

    In April, Apple Computer launched a Bluetooth technology preview for OS X, then delivered the final code as part of OS X 10.2 (Jaguar) and Microsoft promises Bluetooth support this fall as an add-on to Windows XP. Apple was the first to release Bluetooth support to the OS and then Microsoft decided that it is a good idea and implemented.

    About the home peripherals, Apple probably will push a wireless standard to the OS(UWB). 802.11 is a power-hungry standard. After the standard is approved I'd like to see a stereo, camera, tv and the iPod talking to a computer.
  22. Sedulous macrumors 68020


    Dec 10, 2002
    Wintel has nothing that interests me. I see a future for Apple. The only true complaint I've read so far was slow processors... and that won't be an issue a few months from now.

    Have you ever tried using Microsoft's Personal Web Server? Ugh, it is terrible. Networking Wintel machines is no trivial matter either. Do I even have to mention DLL files? Sony is a joke... it isn't even powered. Why is it wintel notebooks usually only have a "recovery" disk that half the time won't work because the PC can't boot from the optical drive? Most of the PC "innovations" are clunky and glitchy at best.

    Apple's aren't that expensive... just look for an equivalent PC and check the price yourself.
  23. hacurio1 macrumors regular

    Dec 13, 2002
    Probably it's because you have a Beige G3. No offense, but I would feel the same way if I was working in such an old computer!!!
  24. jayscheuerle macrumors 68020


    half right.

    That's my home box. The problem is that I can't feel enough difference between that and the G4 I have at work and I honestly haven't been impressed by the latest machines at our Apple Store.

    My beige G3 is the perfect machine for managing mp3s and surfing the web! - j
  25. benixau macrumors 65816


    Oct 9, 2002
    Sydney, Australia
    look, i wont deny it. My AMD XP 1800+ is faster in response etc etc than my MDD-DP1G.

    BUT - there has not been a single day when it has not had a problem that has needed me to admin in and fix. It is a WinXpPro w/5.1 users (5+1 admin).

    My mac - well, what can i say. the only problems i have had with it are from me editing the packages for boot time, mainly Finder and loginWindow.

    I would take my mac over my pc anyday. actually i do. the pc is a family computer. The mac sits in my room. :D

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