Is concealed carry illegal where you live? Carry a gun anyway.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by aaronvan, Jun 15, 2016.

  1. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #1
    When the Law Would Leave You Defenseless Against the Likes of Omar Mateen, Carry a Gun Anyway

    Interesting take from the ultra-libertarians over at Reason. The cops aren't providing you with 24/7 protection so you need to protect yourself.

     
  2. 0007776, Jun 15, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2016

    0007776 Suspended

    0007776

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    I highly doubt the fact that guns are banned in bars had anything to do with his motivation in the attack. He wanted to target gays so a gay bar was an obvious place, he was also wanting to become a martyr and die during the attack so if he knew guns were around it wouldn't have dissuaded him.

    Meanwhile a few days before Europe's strict gun control laws forced a want to be terrorist to try to drive most of the way across the continent to get guns giving plenty of opportunities for police to catch him and he was arrested before the attack could be started.

    Strict gun laws may make it less likely for a "good guy with a gun" to stop a mass shooting, but that rarely happens anyway, and strict gun laws make it more likely for potential terrorists to be arrested before they kill. If the planned Euro 2016 attack had been in the US there is nothing that authorities could have done until he pulled the trigger as up to that point he is just exercising his second amendment rights. I see right wing members complaining all the time about Obama's rules of engagement for our troops in Afghanistan and how they have to wait to be fired on, if that is a problem why should our police have to wait for civilians to be shot at before they are allowed to stop a bad guy with a gun?

    Also the Orlando shootings made up just over a third of the gun deaths in the US over the weekend, they were only shocking because they were all in one place. If the same people had been killed separately over the weekend it would have barely made the news since it would have been just another day. Allowing guns into bars would result in even more deaths from drunk people with guns, they just would be spread out over a larger area so it wouldn't make for big headlines.
     
  3. maxsix Suspended

    maxsix

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    #3
    It's possible that the success the shooter had in Orlando may encourage others of his ilk to move forward with their plans. If this should happen and mass casualties become the norm, the dynamics of gun control are likely to change rapidly. Orlando may be the tip of the iceberg.
     
  4. 0007776 Suspended

    0007776

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    #4
    If 20 children being murdered at Sandy Hook wasn't enough to convince people to get behind gun control nothing will.
     
  5. steve knight, Jun 15, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2016

    steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #5
    Florida has the laxest gun laws of any state. They almost give guns away on the street. This shooting according to the experts would have been worse with armed civilians trying to do what cops had trouble doing. The whole robocop mentality that some guy with a gun will be able to do what is needed is still an illusion.
     
  6. Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #6
    The NRA Circular Logic:
    The problem: Too many guns easily available.
    The solution: More guns. :rolleyes:
    Outcome: People still killing each other.

    The NRA does not seem smart enough to realize when everyone is armed, criminals will up their game, and average (gun) packing citizens are not mentally equipped to engage in a gun battle. IMO this is no longer colonial America. Better to make guns harder to come by, but I feel that it's too late for this country. Pandora's box has been opened, never to be closed.
     
  7. Toltepeceno Suspended

    Toltepeceno

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    #7
    Anti gun nuts are not smart enough to know that everywhere concealed carry is passed the crime rate goes down. Criminals go for gun free zones.
     
  8. 0007776 Suspended

    0007776

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    I agree that it is probably to late to close that Pandora's box. I would love to see the Democrats try to call the Republican's bluff and when the Republicans claim it is a problem of lack of mental health care (while actively planning on continuing to ignore that aspect of it as well) introduce a bill to guarantee universal access to mental health services, it might have a small effect on shootings, and it could be a stepping stone to universal healthcare in other areas as well if passed.
     
  9. adroit macrumors 6502

    adroit

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    #9
    Americans know what the definitive solution to the problem is, they all just collectively decided it's not worth it.
     
  10. steve knight, Jun 15, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2016

    steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #10
    right it magically happens. I mean bad guys sense guns and avoid crime. we also have less guns deaths too right?
    they are not criminals till after they do something with a gun. most of places people don't always have guns. but I am sure terrorists are terribly afraid of bubba with a gun.
    terrorists love america guns grow on trees.
    7 in ten bad guys when questioned said they stopped being bad because of of armed citizens.
     
  11. 0007776 Suspended

    0007776

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    #11
    So has the crime rate dropped in Chicago since concealed carry became legal at the beginning of 2014? Or are you just saying things that you know are wrong in the hopes that no one will bother to check?
     
  12. samiwas macrumors 68000

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    #12
    http://www.theonion.com/article/nra-sets-1000-killed-in-school-shooting-as-amount--28352

    It's the Onion, but it does sounds pretty much exactly like many of the arguments we've heard. I could easily see this being a real speech.

    You mean how pro gun people are not smart enough to realize that the country with the most lax gun laws has by far the most gun deaths of any developed country? And don't say "most of them are suicides" like pdqgp is chomping at the bit to say. Criminals go for easy gun access. Hell, if you ask me...our lax gun laws and national obsession with the created half of the criminals.
     
  13. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #13
    Key quote:

    No it didn't.

    On the other hand, Florida's extremely liberal gun laws didn't save anyone at the Orlando nightclub either.

    The thing that French gun laws do accomplish, is that incidents of gun death and violence in general are far lower than they are in the USA. Preventing thousands of deaths and injuries in the process.
     
  14. Toltepeceno, Jun 15, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2016

    Toltepeceno Suspended

    Toltepeceno

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    #14
    Accusing me of lying? That's the job of the left wing nuts.

    I know anti's are not smart enough to find this stuff on their own but chicago is not the state, illinois is where shall issue is passed and yes it has dropped in illinois. Chicago still bucks the trend with major hoops to jump through and gangbangers shooting each other is not all of the crime that is counted.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/24/chicago-crime-rate-drops-as-concealed-carry-gun-pe/

    2015

    http://downtrend.com/robertgehl/in-chicago-as-concealed-carry-goes-up-crime-is-plummeting

    Welcome back my friend to the list that never ends, we're so glad you could attend, come inside, come inside.

    Adios
     
  15. samiwas macrumors 68000

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    #15
    Yeah, you'd never think that Chicago's crime rate has been falling fairly steadily for at least 13 years. It just continues to do so.
     
  16. Toltepeceno Suspended

    Toltepeceno

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    #16
    Idiotic comment since the nightclub is a gun free zone.
     
  17. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    #17
    Feelings don't trump rights
    --- Post Merged, Jun 15, 2016 ---
    Most conceal carriers don't hang out with the hood rats that are killing each other
     
  18. steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #18
    right. there is no way to prove permits are why crime is down.
    well florida where guns nuts feel all warm and cosy
    11 Of The Nation’s 100 Most Dangerous Cities Are In Florida
     
  19. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    #19
    You can't carry at clubs
     
  20. Toltepeceno Suspended

    Toltepeceno

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    #20
    No winning with anti gun nuts. Facts mean nothing to them, they will still whine.
     
  21. steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #21
    prove the guy went there because of a gun free zone. prove that or throw that argument away. Most bars don't have people caring guns around
     
  22. 0007776 Suspended

    0007776

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    #22
    2014 was a low year for violence I'll give you that, but violence in Chicago rose in 2015 and is well above 2015 levels so far. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ago-through-first-three-months-2016/82507210/

    Now you can try to ignore this rise in crime and claim that the crime rate is still going down because it is down in the rest of the state, but you would be ignoring facts.
     
  23. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    #23
    H please . Club was a gun free zone to anyone who obeys the law. You obviously have no clue what you are trying to argue
     
  24. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #24
    Like I've always said, gun free zones don't do anything to stop shootings, but they also don't encourage it. The vast majority of mass shootings aren't random attacks of opportunity, the shooters always have some twisted reason to do what they do where they do it.
     
  25. steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #25
    right your arguments are so well thought out and all name calling and all proving what your saying is true. 300 million guns in the US and we still have the most gun deaths and some of the highest crime rates. Prove thats not true then you can start working on the smaller bits.
     

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