Is it possible to live without a Vice?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by TSE, Feb 15, 2016.

  1. TSE, Feb 15, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016

    TSE macrumors 68030

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    #1
    I've been wondering this for awhile:

    Whether it's binge eating chocolate, drinking, smoking, watching porn, cheating on a loved one, lot less common ones, whatever...

    is it possible to truly without a vice? What's your opinion?
     
  2. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 603

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    #2
    It depends what you consider a vice. Are you doing something excessive, or doing what considered not good on occasion? Or both?

    I can get by not doing something excessive. But that's were it ends.
     
  3. maxsix Suspended

    maxsix

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  4. chown33 macrumors 604

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    #4
    Having a vise is a virtue. Having adjustable clamps and Vise-Grips is even better.
     
  5. aaronvan, Feb 15, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016

    aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #5
    "He had a brother in California he was going to tell what? 'Say Arthur, there's some boys coming who propose to lower your balls into a six-inch machinists vice and commence to cranking the handle a quarter turn at a time whether you know where I am or not. You might want to think about moving to China.'"

    -- No Country for Old Men
     
  6. Goatllama macrumors 6502a

    Goatllama

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    #6
    Not impossible, but incredibly difficult. If you don't have some weakness or fault, well, you may be a new species.
     
  7. 1458279 Suspended

    1458279

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    #7
    At what point does something become a vice? I'll come out and admit that I have a "relationship" with ice cream. I've given into it many times. When they put cookies inside the ice cream, it changed everything. The slow churned cookies in cream has a hold on me.

    However, I am able to put it down. I can go months without it, but the sight or thought of it can change everything.

    When does slow churned Cookies and Cream go from a treat to a vice?
    icecream.jpeg

    How many of you wish that were in front of you? What will happen when Amazon can have that in front of you under 5 min and under $5? Are you shaking already, can you taste it?
     
  8. Goatllama macrumors 6502a

    Goatllama

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    #8
    Nope, actually makes me a bit nauseous. This is not to say that I wouldn't want it at some point, but definitely not currently.

    And I would say that something becomes a vice when it can significantly affect your day to day decisions. Along the lines of, the vice doesn't even have to be present to influence you, as it is constantly on your mind.
     
  9. shinji macrumors 65816

    shinji

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    #9
    You could, but how enjoyable would your life be if you had no vices whatsoever?
     
  10. blackfox macrumors 65816

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    #10
    Just my opinion, but I think psychologically, we all need a vice. It's just a question of choosing wisely...
     
  11. 1458279 Suspended

    1458279

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    #11
    Are both of these considered a vice? Runner's high vs Sugar high.
    Each one feels the need to feed the high.


    View attachment 616656 obese_eat.jpg
    --- Post Merged, Feb 15, 2016 ---
    runner.jpg
    Couldn't seem to get the 2nd image into one post.
     
  12. bradl macrumors 68040

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    #12
    Unfortunately, we can't live without a vice. The 25th amendment makes sure if that.

    Just keep in' it PRSI, y'all. ;)

    BL.
     
  13. 1458279 Suspended

    1458279

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    #13
    ... If you decide not to choose, have you still made a choice?
    monk.jpeg
    Does this man have a vice?
     
  14. A.Goldberg, Feb 15, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016

    A.Goldberg macrumors 68000

    A.Goldberg

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    #14
    Read the book in the Realm of The Hungry Ghosts by Dr. Gabor Mate. He's works with the drug addicted in Vancouver. Interesting read. He proposes everyone has their own addiction/compulsion. In his case it was buying music.

    I think most people find an external activity to cope. However, some means of coping are more unhealthy than others. Also, the degree to which people rely on their vice probably varies greatly.

    I know buying stuff makes me feel better. How many shirts could I possibly need. When my dad is stressed I know he finds work to do (either with his job or with tasks around the house) to keep himself to distract from what his bothering him. My mom usually eats very healthy, but after a bad day she'll be curled up on the couch with a bowl of ice cream. My girlfriend definitely takes out her negative feelings with (perhaps excessive) exercise.

    It's interesting to see the connections too. My parents usually bought me things to try to make me happy- they were pretty consumed with their careers to ever be there emotionally, therefore I find comfort in shopping. I sense my dad has always believed work ethic is what defines a person so tried to prove himself constantly through work. Work gives him self value. My girlfriend (will kill me for saying this) but was pretty chubby up through Middle School so I think she is afraid she'll be fat again if she doesn't exercise. Etc.
     
  15. steve knight Suspended

    steve knight

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    #15
    One of the biggest vices is religion but that one is considered good of course but it can be a vice.
     
  16. 1458279 Suspended

    1458279

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    #16
    Ok, so what you've brought into the game is fear. Fear of being called fat, fear of a child not being happy. Is fear a part of a vice? Does a smoker have fear?

    Is a 'vice' started out of fear really a vice and how is that different from a vice that doesn't come from fear?

    If you watch "the century of self" they talk about how women were convinced to smoke because of marketing. Women didn't smoke and they were sold as "torches of freedom".

    How is it that some are considered better than others. Coffee is good, uppers are bad, don't both do the same thing?
     
  17. A.Goldberg, Feb 15, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016

    A.Goldberg macrumors 68000

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    #17
    I don't think anyone really has a choice on what their vice is. There's some pretty interesting ties between specific drug addictions (I.e. Opiates) and physiological deficits perhaps related to upbringing. As I described in my last post there might be some connections one can draw between their anxieties and their vices. Vices psychologically speaking typically are seen as ways of coping with different sorts of anxieties.

    One does not choose to be a drug addict or an acoholic- though of course exposure must happen first. Usually these things manifest in other ways. A lot of recovering addicts/alcoholics develop new "addictions" to "substitute" their old habits (food, sex, gambling, shoplifting, etc).

    Does the monk there have a vice? How can we really say for sure? He may sneak off into the woods and have sex for all we know. Just like a Priest can be raping children behind the scenes. Some might say his devotion to religion could perhaps be an obsession, hyper-religiosity- some people get a buzz out it. Or the vice contrary most vices (depending on your definition of vice) would be something different- not indulging oneself into anything pleasurable as a monk. The vice would self punishment.*

    *A practical example. A young man is a star basketball player with future professional potential.He accidentally runs over a pedestrian at night standing in the middle of a 6 lane highway, killing her. He is found to not be at fault. Here are a few life possibilities...
    1) He forgives himself and continue with his life goal as a professional athlete.
    2) Cope with the remorse by drinking/drugging to escape the mental anguish.
    3) Feel guilty for killing a woman and devote his life to being a monk and giving up all material and sexual pleasures in life. (Punishing himself is his coping mechanism- now if he really wanted to be a monk, that would be different)
    --- Post Merged, Feb 15, 2016 ---
    Well, everyone has fear in one way or another. Anxiety is a manifestation of fear. If you believe vices/addictions/compulsions are a means of dealing with anxiety (which most professionals would say that is true), then fear would indeed stimulate the need to indulge in a vice... Unless they have a healthier means of coping with such issues.

    Quick note: My example was not being happy (feeling depressed) not fear of being depressed. Depression is a feeling in itself as is fear, so it's a different category than fear. Some would say depression is not a feeling, but I call it one as it represents multiple feelings- I digress. It's worth noting some people indulge in their vices for POSTIVE feelings too. The Yankees just won- I deserve a peice of cake to celebrate and make myself feel better.

    Addiction gets tricky because you're now including a whole new realm of hijacking psycho/neurobiology. But the same theory applies. Your using a substance to artificially change negative emotion.

    The perception of how "bad" something is measured by how negatively it impacts ones life. Cocaine of course is extremely addictive and can quickly cause severe health consequences including death. People literally will give up their entire lives (money, job, house, family, etc) in order to keep using such addictive substances. Caffeine on the other hand won't likely kill you immediately, people don't usually sell their souls to the devil to get a cup of coffee. However, if you can't sleep at night because you're drinking 7 red bull a day, then perhaps you have a problem.

    Shopping is a life necessity. If occasionally you splurge to make yourself feel better that's one thing. If you're spending so much money you can't afford to feed your family and you've maxed out your credit cards. Then you probably have a problem.

    Smoking is bad of course. It too however doesn't lead people to do crazy things and unfortunately (or foruntunately) it usually takes decades to incur severe consequences (cancer, COPD, etc). That said, I had a 20 year old patient one time in outpatient addiction treatment (primary drug was cocaine) who was repeatedly selling himself to men on Craigslist (claimed to be heterosexual) in order to buy cigarettes. He was putting his life at risk hooking up with strangers, using unsafe sex practices, risking expulsion from his court ordered treatment program, and presumably going against his natural sexual preferences (which would be uncomfortable for anyone on the end of gay or straight spectrum). You see prostitution for drugs in males pretty rarely (sadly all too common in women) but almost never for something as mundane as cigarettes.
     
  18. 1458279 Suspended

    1458279

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    #18
    So, the monk was to question if being a monk is a vice? Assume there is a monk that is a 'perfect monk' Is being a monk itself a vice? I'm no expert on monks, but don't they see the value of a pound of gold the same as a pound of grain?
    Do they seek zen by "choosing not to decide"?

    What if your 'vice' is to avoid all vices? Is that a vice itself? Is an obsession against smoking just as much of a vice as smoking itself? Does the monk get high by avoiding all and finding some inner peace? Is the monk addicted to inner peace?
     
  19. Solomani macrumors 68030

    Solomani

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    #19
    "Everything good in life is either illegal, immoral, or fattening." -Anonymous
     
  20. A.Goldberg, Feb 16, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2016

    A.Goldberg macrumors 68000

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    #20
    I think I got way to abstract and psychoanalytical and complicated this a bit with the monk thing.

    -Basically I was saying a man could be remorseful and decide to make themselves feel better by punishing himself by becoming a monk. Perhaps the true vice in the example is guilt/remorse.
    - There is no such thing as a "perfect monk" (that might be a "god" instead). Monks are human and bound to human nature. A Monk still might consciously consider one woman more attractive than another or find his mind fantasizing. I believe this is typically why Monks are sequestered from women.
    - Another abstract vice: Compulsive suicidal ideation/actions - trying to make oneself feel better by removing life's problems and pain, but in the process killing themselves.
    - Different people or cultures might see depriving someone of sex, family, gifts, etc as immoral.
    - In that most people probably don't enjoy a substantial pleasure or benefit from telling people not to smoke and likely don't incur consequences from such behavior, I don't think you could reasonably argue that as a vice.

    This might help:
    Definitions of Vice
    My definition in the vernacular includes
    1) A compulsive behavior that yields significantly pleasurable or desirable results
    2) While also incurring some sort of negative consequences (that may possibly occur immediately or over years, with varying degrees of severity). Immoral/Unethical/Criminal behavior is usually considered so because it has negative consequences eventually.

    Vices are also considered the opposite of virtues:
    I.e. In Buddhism:
    • Absence of shame
    • Absence of embarrassment
    • Jealousy
    • Parsimony (stinginess)
    • Remorse
    • Drowsiness
    • Distraction
    • Torpor (state of mental inactivity)
    • Anger
    • Concealment of wrongdoing
     
  21. Technarchy macrumors 603

    Technarchy

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    #21
    True everyone has a vice, but not all vices are destructive to the person.
     
  22. satcomer macrumors 603

    satcomer

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    #22
    Just like everything in life I have always said "The secret to life is moderation"! :D
     
  23. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #23
    That true for almost everything. (Just a little bit of murdering still seems wrong to me.)

    But yes: A glass or two of wine with dinner? A delightful compliment to a meal, a healthy pleasure for both mind and body. Guzzling a few bottles a day? A surefire recipe for foul temper; ruined health; and a wasted life.

    The trick is, of course, managing that moderation. To have the willpower and self-awareness to recognize one's body; palette; and brain need and deserve periodic rewards - while resisting the temptation to overindulge.
     

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