Is Karl Rove at work again??

Thomas Veil

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Feb 14, 2004
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Just think. If it hadn't been for incompetence and dirty tricks like these, Bush might not be president now.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Millions of U.S. citizens, including a disproportionate number of black voters, will be blocked from voting in the Nov. 2 presidential election because of legal barriers, faulty procedures or dirty tricks, according to civil rights and legal experts.

The largest category of those legally disenfranchised consists of almost 5 million former felons who have served prison sentences and been deprived of the right to vote under laws that have roots in the post-Civil War 19th century and were aimed at preventing black Americans from voting.

But millions of other votes in the 2000 presidential election were lost due to clerical and administrative errors while civil rights organizations have cataloged numerous tactics aimed at suppressing black voter turnout. Polls consistently find that black Americans overwhelmingly vote for Democrats.

"There are individuals and officials who are actively trying to stop people from voting who they think will vote against their party and that nearly always means stopping black people from voting Democratic," said Mary Frances Berry, head of the U.S. Commission on Human Rights.

Vicky Beasley, a field officer for People for the American Way, listed some of the ways voters have been "discouraged" from voting.

"In elections in Baltimore in 2002 and in Georgia last year, black voters were sent fliers saying anyone who hadn't paid utility bills or had outstanding parking tickets or were behind on their rent would be arrested at polling stations. It happens in every election cycle," she said.

In a mayoral election in Philadelphia last year, people pretending to be plainclothes police officers stood outside some polling stations asking people to identify themselves. There have also been reports of mysterious people videotaping people waiting in line to vote in black neighborhoods.

Minority voters may be deterred from voting simply by election officials demanding to see drivers' licenses before handing them a ballot, according to Spencer Overton, who teaches law at George Washington University. The federal government does not require people to produce a photo identification unless they are first-time voters who registered by mail.

"African Americans are four to five times less likely than whites to have a photo ID," Overton said at a recent briefing on minority disenfranchisement.

Courtenay Strickland of the Americans Civil Liberties Union testified to the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights last week that at a primary election in Florida last month, many people were wrongly turned away when they could not produce identification.

BLACKS' BALLOTS REJECTED

The commission, in a report earlier this year, said that in Florida, where President Bush won a bitterly disputed election in 2000 by 537 votes, black voters had been 10 times more likely than non-black voters to have their ballots rejected and were often prevented from voting because their names were erroneously purged from registration lists.

...Penda Hair, co-director of the Advancement Project, which seeks to ensure fair multiracial elections, recently reported that registrars across the country often claimed not to have received voter registration forms or rejected them for technical reasons that could have been corrected easily before voting day if the applicant had known there was a problem.
Nice, eh? Apparently some things never change.
 

relimw

macrumors 6502a
May 6, 2004
611
0
SC
Thomas Veil said:
Just think. If it hadn't been for incompetence and dirty tricks like these. Nice, eh? Apparently some things never change.
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ said:
Minority voters may be deterred from voting simply by election officials demanding to see drivers' licenses before handing them a ballot, according to Spencer Overton, who teaches law at George Washington University. The federal government does not require people to produce a photo identification unless they are first-time voters who registered by mail.

"African Americans are four to five times less likely than whites to have a photo ID," Overton said at a recent briefing on minority disenfranchisement.
I have no problem spending $5 to go get a photo id from the DMV, and I wish that more people would, and that one would be required to show it to vote.
If it wasn't for people like the famous dead Chiago democrats, or the infamous 50k dual registered New Yorkers (registered in Florida and NY) we wouldn't have as many elections contested by cheats as we have now.

If you don't like the rules, vote to change them. If you're scared to vote, read what your rights are. Simple.
 

stubeeef

macrumors 68030
Aug 10, 2004
2,702
2
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Millions of U.S. citizens, including a disproportionate number of black voters, will be blocked from voting in the Nov. 2 presidential election because of legal barriers, faulty procedures or dirty tricks, according to civil rights and legal experts.
Reminds me of Nadars plight.
 

wwworry

macrumors regular
Mar 23, 2002
235
0
so I see stubeef and relimw don't have a problem with those false fliers, intimidation tactics or removing registered voters from the voting rolls. It makes me so glad to be an American. :eek:
 

pseudobrit

macrumors 68040
Jul 23, 2002
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relimw said:
I have no problem spending $5...
If you don't like the rules, vote to change them.
Fancy that, they already did...

The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any state by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
 

Chip NoVaMac

macrumors G3
Dec 25, 2003
8,889
25
Northern Virginia
relimw said:
I have no problem spending $5 to go get a photo id from the DMV, and I wish that more people would, and that one would be required to show it to vote.
If it wasn't for people like the famous dead Chiago democrats, or the infamous 50k dual registered New Yorkers (registered in Florida and NY) we wouldn't have as many elections contested by cheats as we have now.

If you don't like the rules, vote to change them. If you're scared to vote, read what your rights are. Simple.
If we are going to require photo id's then we need to make it easier for people to get them. Offering evening and weekend hours would go a long way to those that struggle to pay the bills.
 

pseudobrit

macrumors 68040
Jul 23, 2002
3,418
4
Jobs' Spare Liver Jar
Chip NoVaMac said:
If we are going to require photo id's then we need to make it easier for people to get them. Offering evening and weekend hours would go a long way to those that struggle to pay the bills.
Universal, free, and distributed as such to every eligible voter. That's the only way it's legal to require photo ID.
 

stubeeef

macrumors 68030
Aug 10, 2004
2,702
2
wwworry said:
so I see stubeef and relimw don't have a problem with those false fliers, intimidation tactics or removing registered voters from the voting rolls. It makes me so glad to be an American. :eek:
GIVE ME A BREAK, YOU SHOULD WORRY WITH COMMENTS LIKE THAT.
Quite assumptive. Talk about generating falsenesses.
Notice you had nothing to say about the dnc-nader conflict. I love those holy disenfranchise folks here.

Let me say to the contrary, I believe every eligable voter has the right to vote or NOT to vote. There should never be a restriction to voting if you are eligable to do so. Anyone caught trying to limit someones right to vote should be tried in a court of law, the accusation should be levied and the accused allowed to defend themselves.

I went to my local BOE two weeks ago and ensured that both my wife and I were eligable because we had sent in change of address forms earlier in the year. So alot of the following is hooie...
The commission, in a report earlier this year, said that in Florida, where President Bush won a bitterly disputed election in 2000 by 537 votes, black voters had been 10 times more likely than non-black voters to have their ballots rejected and were often prevented from voting because their names were erroneously purged from registration lists.

...Penda Hair, co-director of the Advancement Project, which seeks to ensure fair multiracial elections, recently reported that registrars across the country often claimed not to have received voter registration forms or rejected them for technical reasons that could have been corrected easily before voting day if the applicant had known there was a problem.
So the registrar's were 10 times more prejudice in favor of the asians, arabs, mexicans, cubans, jews, and american indians, than the blacks. The real point is an indictment of the education system than the registrars.
The registrar is there to ensure accuracy in registration. It is that persons JOB to reject or accept applications based on the info provided. Have you ever mailed in something that hasn't gotten there? That's why Fedx is a multi-billion dollar corp.
We must all take responsibility to ensure that we press the right button, fill out the card correctly (or get help doing so), find our polling station.
There were entire messes all over the country on election day, judges were closing and keeping open voting stations in different jurisdictions, it was a mess. VOTE early if you can, Vote often if your from chicago.
In my part of the country we can begin voting Oct 8th, to ensure that everyone has an opportunity. If you are waiting for the government to make sure you are spoon feed your daily information you will go hungry for it.
NO ONE SHOULD ILLEGITAMATELY BE BARRED FROM VOTING.

BTW
(CNN) -- The Kerry presidential campaign filed a complaint Friday with the Federal Election Commission, alleging that ads from an anti-Kerry veterans' group are inaccurate and "illegally coordinated" with Republicans and the Bush-Cheney campaign.
Luckily Lockhart/texans4truth/CBS are accurate and "un-impeachable", cause otherwise the kerry campaign would have a double standard.
 

slughead

macrumors 68040
Apr 28, 2004
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My opinion of florida '00 is that it was all a result of election law and policy that was foolish and ill-planned. Democrats complained that "oh the recount showed this and Bush lost and thus he didn't win".. well I actually agree with the Republicans on this one: You can't change the rules after the game is over. The courts decided the rules were stupid yet they were what they were. Any deviation of the rules would be the ultimate F-U to the democratic process.

Yes, Republicans may have intentionally done some "bad" things, but maybe you should've thought of that BEFORE THE GAME STARTED. Are you sure they cheated? or were they just playing the evil game that BOTH parties set up, and the republicans won.

I don't really care who won in 2000 anyway (as I am a libertarian), I'm just sick of hearing about all this "waa republicans are playing dirty."

You republicrats rig the elections with your campaign finance 527 diversion, you rig the debates by keeping 3rd parties out, you take 3rd parties off the ballot in a MOST SADISTIC WAY, and then you complain about THE OTHER GUY pulling dirty tricks? Cry me a river.

Both parties were playing by the rules THEY BIPARTISANLY WROTE, and the other guy one. Yes, it's not fair, yes it's undemocratic, but NO, no republicrat has the reason to complain, as long as they keep voting republicrat.
 

Thomas Veil

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Original poster
Feb 14, 2004
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Can you explain, Stubeeef, how you checking on your registration status means that some black folks weren't denied the right to vote four years ago?

If you're saying that the onus should be on the voter to make sure the state actually accepts their registration...why? Why shouldn't the state notify voters if they have a problem with it? And shouldn't we be concerned that registrars, accidentally or purposely, seem to be losing lots of people's voter registrations?

And does your definition of non-black really mean Asians, Arabs, Mexicans, Cubans, Jews, and Native Americans? As a white guy whose ancestors hail from Europe, I'm kind of surprised that I'm not included in that non-black category.

I'm not even gonna address your comments about Lockhart and Texans for Truth (although CBS is fair game right now), because they're not even on-topic.
 

stubeeef

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Aug 10, 2004
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Can you explain, Stubeeef, how you checking on your registration status means that some black folks weren't denied the right to vote four years ago?
Only you are trying to make that link. Checking your reg. is what you do to eliminate the issue of lost or not recieved registration forms, not illiminate thugs.
If you're saying that the onus should be on the voter to make sure the state actually accepts their registration...why? Why shouldn't the state notify voters if they have a problem with it? And shouldn't we be concerned that registrars, accidentally or purposely, seem to be losing lots of people's voter registrations?
Why...because it is called personal responsibility. The state will notivy voters if they have a problem with their registration, call the office and ask. Otherwise who should they notify of not being registered, if they don't know about them or their desire to register how in the heck can they notify them...catch 22. Who said we shouldn't be concerned about losing voter registrations? That is another of your assumptions.

And does your definition of non-black really mean Asians, Arabs, Mexicans, Cubans, Jews, and Native Americans? As a white guy whose ancestors hail from Europe, I'm kind of surprised that I'm not included in that non-black category.
You are included, I felt that most of us knew that, sorry next time I will spell it out better. For those of you that didn't understand that whites are not blacks I would like to make that point now. Whites are not blacks.

I'm not even gonna address your comments about Lockhart and Texans for Truth (although CBS is fair game right now), because they're not even on-topic.
You are right, not for this thread. Moved it to the CBS's & maybe Kerry's legal issue . Thankyou.
 

wwworry

macrumors regular
Mar 23, 2002
235
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So one is expected to double check every official transaction???

perhaps through some clerical error there is no record of your property tax payment.
your house has been put up on the sherriffs sale list.
why didn't you check??

perhaps through some clerical error there is no record of your vehical registration renewal.
your car has been impounded.
why didn't you check??

perhaps through some clerical error there is no record of your voter registration.
you can't vote.
why didn't you check??

One naturally assumes if one has been removed from the voting roles one would be informed. This was not the case in Florida in 2000 and even in 2004 they had to sue the state of Florida to find out who had been removed. Once the list was made public it was found to have a lot of inaccuracies.

Judge rules for media on Florida voter list
Upholds both 'right to inspect' and 'right to copy'

Friday, July 2, 2004 Posted: 10:43 AM EDT (1443 GMT)
(CNN) -- A state court judge in Florida ordered Thursday that the board of elections immediately release a list of nearly 50,000 suspected felons to CNN and other news organizations that last month sued the state for access to copies of the list.

Florida knew of voter list problems

BY DAVID KIDWELL

dkidwell@herald.com

TALLAHASSEE - Well before they abruptly discarded it, Florida election officials knew they had significant problems with a database of felons they planned to use in removing voters from the rolls.

Just a week before they directed local election chiefs to begin purging ineligible voters from the list of 48,000 convicted felons, state officials documented two years of failures and breakdowns with the $2.7 million contract with database vendor Accenture.

A May 2 internal memo, ordered personally by Secretary of State Glenda Hood, details a half dozen missed deadlines and broken promises, failed software programs, repeated miscues and personnel problems.

Two months after the memo, with newspapers including The Herald detailing major flaws with the felon database that could have disenfranchised thousands, the state reversed course and told election chiefs not to use the felon list.
 

stubeeef

macrumors 68030
Aug 10, 2004
2,702
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It is good that cnn and others were able to copy the list. From reading your link - it read that you were able to check it, just not copy it. It was stupid legislation-no question.
The best part of the copying of the list is here! . An impartial article, points out republican and democrat violations, some good stories of dumb republicans and dumb dems. So enjoy.

Yes we should have access, we should all take responsibility to check our status and scream if needed. And maybe we should prosecute those 40,000+ voters who are illegally registering.
 

stubeeef

macrumors 68030
Aug 10, 2004
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Didn't i here that the new methods of voting in many districts are worse than the chad making punch cards? Anybody got more on that?

It would seem that since government is so inept at managing elections and data bases, we should have less government, not more inane legislation and buracracy<sp>?
 

wwworry

macrumors regular
Mar 23, 2002
235
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That's like saying because the police can not stop crime we should have less police.
(The GOP congress is ending the 88,000 federally funded local police program. Maybe their bad logic IS consistent.)

The point is that Florida had to be sued to release their list. There was no way to check it until they released the list. It also shows a continued pattern of trying to decrease voter turnout in minority areas. There is nothing wrong with trying to increase your supporters turnout. There is something wrong with the opposite.

Here is another good article on the subject:

POLL POSITION
by JEFFREY TOOBIN
Is the Justice Department poised to stop voter fraud—or to keep voters from voting?
 

coconn06

macrumors regular
Jun 14, 2003
197
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King of Prussia, PA
The largest category of those legally disenfranchised consists of almost 5 million former felons who have served prison sentences and been deprived of the right to vote under laws that have roots in the post-Civil War 19th century and were aimed at preventing black Americans from voting.
Sigh. Laws like these are unconstitutional, and we need people in power who are willing to stand up for the Constitution, the document on which our country was based. I think too many lawmakers have never even read it. Their legislation certainly provides a good case for that.
 

stubeeef

macrumors 68030
Aug 10, 2004
2,702
2
perhaps through some clerical error there is no record of your property tax payment.
your house has been put up on the sherriffs sale list.
why didn't you check??
Notice is given, courts will slow or stop such events, show your proof of payment, yell some, problem fixed.
perhaps through some clerical error there is no record of your vehical registration renewal.
your car has been impounded.
why didn't you check??
Renewal happens every year of two depending on where you live, if you think your car is going to be impounded out of now where by the government, it would appear to me that you too think the government is to big and overpowered.
perhaps through some clerical error there is no record of your voter registration.
you can't vote.
why didn't you check??
If you voted last time and are unable to this time, there has been no change to your status, then you are a victim, either due to a conspiracy or bad programer.

Would you advocate a comprehensive notification system that gives you information about every aspect of your life, so that you can recalibrate at will? If so just say it. But based on the way governments seem to constantly screw things up, I would advocate less government. The examples you provided for notification were oversimplified. Unless of course you live in a society with lots of government power and fewer individual rights.
 

stubeeef

macrumors 68030
Aug 10, 2004
2,702
2
From here

The next time Senator Kerry tells a black audience about massive disenfranchisement, he might also inform them that in none of the offending counties was the county supervisor a Republican — and in 24 of the 25 counties with the highest ballot spoilage — er, disenfranchisement — rates, the county supervisor was a Democrat.
The myth that President Bush lost the popular vote, even though a million black Democrats were supposedly disenfranchised, has also become a verity. This, despite the fact that every single vote count — including those conducted by various media — unequivocally establishes that Bush won. In fact, the Miami Herald election 2000 report notes that had the looser count standards sought by Al Gore been employed, Bush's margin would've increased. Moreover, contrary to popular belief, in counties using punch-card voting, mismarked ballots were more likely to affect Bush than Gore.
Is there a mess in our elections, looks like it to me. Is it a right wing conspiracy? Probably about as often as a left wing one, as the ole chicago quote goes "vote early, vote often". There is no legitamacy in this argument along party lines, each is complicant.

worrier, i found this part of your article particularly interesting
Daniel Lowenstein, a professor of law at U.C.L.A., says. “Here you have the standard five so-called conservatives on the Court deciding in favor of John Lewis and the Democratic Party of Georgia, and the so-called liberals in favor of the Republicans in Georgia.”
 

coconn06

macrumors regular
Jun 14, 2003
197
0
King of Prussia, PA
wwworry said:
That's like saying because the police can not stop crime we should have less police.
Though this is irrelevant to the topic, I'll argue that your metaphor is poor; you can't prove that the number of police correlates to the amount of crime. There are many other factors that more significantly influence crime. Read what Michael Badnarik has to say about this..
 

Thomas Veil

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Feb 14, 2004
2,435
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OBJECTIVE reality
stubeeef said:
Only you are trying to make that link.
stubeeef said:
I went to my local BOE two weeks ago and ensured that both my wife and I were eligable because we had sent in change of address forms earlier in the year. So alot of the following is hooie...
The commission, in a report earlier this year, said that in Florida, where President Bush won a bitterly disputed election in 2000 by 537 votes, black voters had been 10 times more likely than non-black voters to have their ballots rejected and were often prevented from voting because their names were erroneously purged from registration lists.

...Penda Hair, co-director of the Advancement Project, which seeks to ensure fair multiracial elections, recently reported that registrars across the country often claimed not to have received voter registration forms or rejected them for technical reasons that could have been corrected easily before voting day if the applicant had known there was a problem.
Maybe. But it certainly seemed that you were linking these paragraphs.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the rest. I think the responsibility is upon the registrars to do their job competently and legally. Heck, every time I mail somebody a letter, I don't have to call them by phone to make sure they got the letter. I expect my post office to handle it competently, without losing it or throwing it away. And I sure don't expect a postal employee to inform me that if I show up at the post office and have unpaid parking tickets, I could be arrested.
 

Chip NoVaMac

macrumors G3
Dec 25, 2003
8,889
25
Northern Virginia
stubeef, it appears that you would like discrimination that could benefit the RNC in the elections. We are not talking about the Chicago method of voting. But one that based on the partisan personnel that allows for eligible voters to to vote.

I do not see you asking for voter registration to be tied to a local id system. Not that such an id system is against everything that our country is founded upon. What I sense, and please correct me if I am wrong, is one of discrimination that supports your party.

Registrations of minorities may be looked upon as supporting one party or another. In reality, once one enters the voting booth - all gloves are off. Are you so afraid of the system?
 

wwworry

macrumors regular
Mar 23, 2002
235
0
no he does not support discrimination but he also will try to change the subject when it comes to taking a stand against voter discrimination.

It's the voters fault because they did not double check that their registration was good.

The dems are trying to get Nader off the ballot.

etc.

same ol' same ol'