Is religion a fraud?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by 1458279, Jan 18, 2016.

  1. 1458279 Suspended

    1458279

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    #1
    With all the discussion over Islam over the last few years, I started digging into things. I started with NO knowledge of Islam.

    I found a common thread in some of these discussions about Islam, and it seems they could also apply to other religions.

    The part of the argument that's seems pretty damming is that these religions are created so as to be beyond the reach of science. They are designed such that they know no proof would ever be found.

    In addition is the fact that the ones I've looked at have something else in common. You don't get to the truth till the end. There is no way to actually confirm that they are right.

    Another issue is that some don't allow you to challenge what it taught, some will kill you if you do.

    One of the basic elements of a fraud is getting someone to believe something. Most of them start people when they are very young, before the brain understand logic and critical thinking.

    Rituals are to reinforce the belief and fend off any other thought, but if the belief had a strong argument, why would they not welcome other thoughts and defend against them with logic?



    Another thought:
    If religion is to help people be good, why is it that 0.07% of the people in prison, non-religious?

    http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-a...americas-scientists-and-07-percent-its-prison

    So are religious people low IQ people that fell for a big scam? It' looks like the more religious a person is, the lower their IQ.
    iqvsreligion.gif


    In addition, lower IQ people are less likely to know they are lower IQ people than average IQ people are to know they are average.

    The lower the IQ, the less likely a person know they are lower IQ.

    All these things point to what could be the biggest scam in all of human history.
     
  2. lobeyonekenobi macrumors regular

    lobeyonekenobi

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    #2
    How can you believe in something you cannot prove??

    I think the world would be a more peaceful place if there was no religion, too many wars fought in the name of religion, If you want to believe in God then that's okay as that is your choice as long as you don't try to impose it upon me has always been my belief.

    Also if there was a God in the sky I don't think he would try to impose all these ludicrous rules that religion sets upon people, as long as you are a good person and don't harm anyone, do as you wish.
     
  3. zioxide macrumors 603

    zioxide

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    #3
    Duh.

    The whole concept of "god" is nothing but Santa Claus for adults.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. lobeyonekenobi macrumors regular

    lobeyonekenobi

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    #4
    This is so true, my wife is an Orthodox and my kids have been brought up to believe in God, not in any brainwashing way and they only go to church at Christmas, Easter etc.. but my older kids have only just found out (by me) that I don't believe in him, secretly I'm not sure my son really does but doesn't say so.
     
  5. JarScott macrumors 68040

    JarScott

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    #5
    If God was real, he'd be tried and found guilty of crimes against humanity.

    Is my input to this thread.

    Also yes, religion is fraud and religious people have low IQs because they're prepared to believe such nonsense. But not all religious people are bad...not all bad people are religious.
    --- Post Merged, Jan 18, 2016 ---
    I always thought it would be difficult, as an atheist, to live with an SO who was heavily religious. I'd find myself clashing with that person too much and I certainly wouldn't want my future kids to be exposed to religious indoctrination in any way. I'm straight set against kids being 'forced' (as it were) to follow a specific religion from a young age, just because of what their parents believe. Children should be allowed to grow up religion-less until they are old enough to exactly understand religion as a concept, and have the ability to truly choose if they want to be religious and which religion they'd like to follow. Common sense is rarely used when it comes to religion, which is what worries me most.
     
  6. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #6
    No religion is not a fraud. People all over the world, in virtually every culture find ways to revere and celebrate a spiritual aspect of their being and the world. Religious experience can be a immensely positive, profound and life-altering.
     
  7. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #7
    I don't think it's constructive to bash someone for their religious beliefs. It doesn't do anyone any good to argue whether their "god" exists. Nobody should go out of their way to tell someone their belief system is based on "fiction", it makes you look like an *******. With that said, ones religion should stay in the home and their church. They can carry those beliefs with them every day and live their life accordingly to those beliefs until they contradict common law. The people who proselytize to every Tom, Dick and Harry because they feel it is their duty to teach you about their god are just as bad as the ones who want to tell you your god doesn't exist.
     
  8. 1458279 thread starter Suspended

    1458279

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    #8
    I'm not sure, are you quoting Jim Jones?

    Jonestown105.jpg

    -People all over the world [check]
    -in virtually every culture [check]
    -find ways to revere [check]
    -celebrate a spiritual aspect of their being [check]
    -profound and life-altering [check]
     
  9. thermodynamic Suspended

    thermodynamic

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    #9
    Do atheists get to be allowed to answer that just as much as the religious? They cannot prove godlessness anymore than the religious can prove a deity or a bunch of them exist. This is an impasse and quite the ducky one.

    I think if people acted ethically toward one another, with personal responsibility and corporate responsibility and younameitresponsibility the world would be a better place.

    Plus, we all know the song "Imagine" (since your comment about imaging if there were no religion was an obvious product tie-in) was written by a wife beating egomaniac who mocked the retarded and was a homophobe, of which others in the industry mocked him as saying "Only a millionaire could write a song about having no possessions".

    "For a lie to work it must be shrouded in truth". Religious and anonreligious constructs have that in common, when it comes to screwing people over.
     
  10. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #10
    Is that the level I can expect from you in this discussion?
     
  11. thermodynamic Suspended

    thermodynamic

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    #11
    But in a society where multiple religions are going to have to coexist, that means a common law that all must obey must also be set. Can't we just look at the commonalities between religions, where lying and murdering and coveting and swindling are wrong and start from there?
     
  12. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #12
    That depends. In philosophical discussions its perfectly fine. And unfortunately, when religion exerts itself into what should be secular laws and practices, then it becomes necessary.

    Amen.
     
  13. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #13
    Common or statutory law are made devoid of religion in our society. Whether a law contradicts a given religious practice/law should be of little concern.
    --- Post Merged, Jan 18, 2016 ---
    You can have philosophical discussions over religion. But we've seen all too many times where someone's main objective (because they believe they're "smarter" or more "enlightened") is to call into question the intelligence of those with those religious beliefs. Simply because they want to have some grand pissing contest or to do nothing more than go out of their way to be a condescending *******. When it comes to religion I find it best to just let people believe what they want, I don't have to agree with it or understand it.
     
  14. 1458279 thread starter Suspended

    1458279

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    #14
    You pointed out elements that both have in common.

    In fact, you can't prove they didn't have the path to heaven...
     
  15. lobeyonekenobi macrumors regular

    lobeyonekenobi

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    #15
    My kids are not forced and my wife is not an extremist as I would not be with her, she just believes and doesn't preach about the religion, we never clash about it as we never talk about it, we agree to disagree, it's an opinion.
    --- Post Merged, Jan 18, 2016 ---
    It's not up to an atheist to prove God doesn't exist, how can you?, it's like saying the Easter bunny doesn't exist, well prove it!! and believe it or not I wasn't even referencing John Lennon just because I said religion causes too much trouble, it is my own belief so get off your soapbox about him being a wife beater etc..

    I also mentioned my wife is a believer in God and I respect her belief, everyone has a right to their own beliefs, if I said otherwise I'd be no better than a religious preacher.
     
  16. MacNut macrumors Core

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    #16
    Is it a fraud, no. Back 6000 years ago they didn't have science or a way to reason with what people saw. They could not explain it so they just assumed it was a higher power. As science advances we are able to go back in time and explain the events that happened. I think in many ways people don't want to give up that security blanket that religion provides. Or they really hope there is light at the end of the tunnel. To be fair, if you were told when you die that everything ends would you look forward to death?

    I guess we won't know if there is an afterlife until it is our time.
     
  17. Populism macrumors regular

    Populism

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    #17
    Your topic is a good one. There's both the intellectual/feeling side of it, and there's also the rubber-hits-the-road side.

    On the intellectual/feeling side, I personally believe all religion is fraud, especially Christianity.

    On the rubber-hits-the-road-side, your opening six words hit the real issue:

    And the answer is: it is ok to **** on any religion, to look at any of any one religion in a vacuum, except Islam.

    If/when the subject is Islam, nary say a negative word unless you also inject Crusades-era Christianity. For example, don't mention current-day, state-ordained Islamic executions of gays, without laying equal blame on Christians, even if that means jumping in the time machine for a bit.
     
  18. 1458279 thread starter Suspended

    1458279

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    #18
    Excellent point!
    Islam has a built in "say something bad, I'll cut off your head" clause.

    I've discussed and have seen LONG discussions with Christians. I've NEVER seen it end with a head being cut off.

    Why does it NEED an exception clause? Did someone figure it wouldn't pass the logic test? Was it all planned that way?
    --- Post Merged, Jan 18, 2016 ---
    I agree, but what about the money part. How much money do all the churches have?

    Didn't the Pope talk about the "evil of money" ... How much money does the Pope's church have? How much poverty is the Pope ending with all the money they have?
     
  19. jkcerda macrumors 6502

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    #19
    THERE are four lights.............
    --- Post Merged, Jan 18, 2016 ---
    money is the root of evil, that is why we have "in God we trust" printed on it.
     
  20. chown33 macrumors 604

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    #20
    No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

    Bring in the... comfy chair!
     
  21. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #21
    Honestly, seeing as the major three are essentially the same exact story rehashed, I really don't understand how people believe.

    That said, I was the kid at Catechism that the teachers didn't like because of my follow up questions. I really got the sense they expected my curiosity to end after "because...god's love".
     
  22. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #22
    BECAUSE it brings a great deal of comfort to many......
     
  23. 1458279 thread starter Suspended

    1458279

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    #23
    I knew I was starting a forest fire in the dry season, but honestly, I just wanted to get a feel for how many see some of the things that I'm seeing.
    --- Post Merged, Jan 18, 2016 ---
    There's something interesting about humans. Known as the Dunning Kruger effect.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

    Basically, lower IQ people don't know they're lower IQ people. They are ripe for a scam. They don't understand logic very well. They can't really understand logic if you try to teach them. Fear can be used against them MUCH easier than higher IQ people. They breed like rabbits.

    BTW, some religions have specific views on sex and reproduction that seem to favor breeding like rabbits. Which becomes self serving.

    If this whole thing was just a big scam, you'd have to admit, it's the biggest scam in all of humanity. Just look at the numbers.
     
  24. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #24
    see post 7. you went from legit questions to mocking plenty. I do like George Carlins take on religion.
     
  25. thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

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    #25
    Liked specifically for Star Trek reference. Somehow I wouldn't have expected you to know such an obscure one.


    As you know I'm extremely skeptical with regards to claims of IQ correlation. Most people are never directly tested, so I'm skeptical how they arrived at that scatterplot of data. It's also unclear what it represents. There are multiple dots at a specific level, yet a percentage value is assigned to "religions is very important". I think it's difficult to assign weight to this without some explanation of the data. I'm also skeptical that linear regression provides a lot of information here. It seems to suggest some expectation of IQ based on "religion is very important", but given the amount of variance with such a soft parameter, I'm not sure I would read too far into that.
     

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