Is the world of OS 9 lost?: Booting into 9 from X

[Jennifer]

I have some old WordPerfect Docs that require OS 9. I wanted to install the last WordPerfect version made for Mac by having the OS start up with OS 9 and then install from there.

When I went to start-up disk in system preferences, however, I was surprised to find that there was no OS 9 option! Although, I do have an OS 9 application and system folder.

I am highly suspicious at this point because I just did a typical re-installation of OS 10.3.2 (archiving the old system folder) on my new PowerBook because of a suspected corrupted help application (as per instructions of Apple Tech support).

Questions:
(1) Is it not possible to boot into OS 9 from OS X anymore? OR Is it normal NOT to have the choice to boot into 9 from the start-up disk?
(2) If not, what is the correct way of installing WordPerfect/OS 9 app?

Thank you for your input,
Jennifer

 

[Sun Baked]

I have some old WordPerfect Docs that require OS 9. I wanted to install the last WordPerfect version made for Mac by having the OS start up with OS 9 and then install from there.

When I went to start-up disk in system preferences, however, I was surprised to find that there was no OS 9 option! Although, I do have an OS 9 application and system folder.

I am highly suspicious at this point because I just did a typical re-installation of OS 10.3.2 (archiving the old system folder) on my new PowerBook because of a suspected corrupted help application (as per instructions of Apple Tech support).

Questions:
(1) Is it not possible to boot into OS 9 from OS X anymore? OR Is it normal NOT to have the choice to boot into 9 from the start-up disk?
(2) If not, what is the correct way of installing WordPerfect/OS 9 app?

Thank you for your input,
Jennifer

Any PowerMac with Firewire 800 will not boot OS 9.

The rest of the Mac lose the ability when they have DDR (except for the newest eMac, which may or may not boot OS 9 depending on which one you get).

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But MacLinkPlus ( http://www.dataviz.com ) should be able to translate WordPerfect Docs to Word format.

 

[KC9AIC]

The fact that many of Apple's new Macs can't boot into OS 9 is one of the reasons they still sell their MDD G4s new, advertising them as both OS 9 and OS X bootable.

 

[Horrortaxi]

If it's a newer Mac it won't boot into 9. To install old apps that run in OS 9, just put in the CD and hit the installer. Classic will start and the app will install like normal. No biggie.

 

[Jennifer]

Thank you but just to be clear . . .

What I've got is a new PowerBook G4.

This, you are saying, will not boot into OS 9, yet the Clamshell iBook I've got that is running the same exact OS 10.3.2 will boot into 9.

I had similar issues on the Clamshell recently, and had to install OS 9.2.2 from a courtesy disk Apple sent and now I can boot into both. But I was advised to install the OS 9 application (WordPerfect) from 9.

So, with the new machine, I'd just install the OS 9 app--which is a download--from OS X and it will be placed in the correct application folder?

It all seems too simple.

Why didn't Apple just do this in the first place? Why the "phase out" so to speak?

What are really the advantages of being able to boot into 9?

 

[Plissken]

What I've got is a new PowerBook G4.

This, you are saying, will not boot into OS 9, yet the Clamshell iBook I've got that is running the same exact OS 10.3.2 will boot into 9.

I had similar issues on the Clamshell recently, and had to install OS 9.2.2 from a courtesy disk Apple sent and now I can boot into both. But I was advised to install the OS 9 application (WordPerfect) from 9.

So, with the new machine, I'd just install the OS 9 app--which is a download--from OS X and it will be placed in the correct application folder?

It all seems too simple.

Why didn't Apple just do this in the first place? Why the "phase out" so to speak?

What are really the advantages of being able to boot into 9?

to make things a bit clearer here, it is built into the hardware of the newer Macs including your new PowerBook to not be able to boot into OS 9. it was a decision Apple made but because of this hardware change that your clamshell will do OS 9 and your PB won't. hope this helps a bit or sorry if you knew this and i actually just insulted you.

 

[blue&whiteman]

I think apples choice is a logical one. anyone with a brand new mac now or in the future really has no need to boot os9. I feel that x has been a 100% usable os since 10.2 and since then I have not used 9. the only time they both existed on my mac was when 10 and 10.1 were out.

I would only ever use 9 or older again if I absolutely had to. 10 is just that good in my mind.

 

[Daveman Deluxe]

What I've got is a new PowerBook G4.

This, you are saying, will not boot into OS 9, yet the Clamshell iBook I've got that is running the same exact OS 10.3.2 will boot into 9.

Exactly so. It's a hardware thing, not a software thing--the ROMs of newer machines won't allow booting into OS 9. It may be OpenFirmware, but I'm pretty sure it's in the ROM.

 

[Snowy_River]

...
Why didn't Apple just do this in the first place? Why the "phase out" so to speak?

What are really the advantages of being able to boot into 9?

The reason for the "phase out" is that there are some OS 9 applications that require the machine to have booted in OS 9 to run. Most notably, applications that need to "grab" hardware elements, such as USB ports, typically won't work in Classic mode, because of the safety feature in how OS X handles hardware elements, and doesn't allow applications to take control of them directly.

As an example, I have an older digital camera that uses a proprietary software app to access the photos. This software only works in OS 9, but not in Classic under OS X, precisely because it tries to talk directly to the USB port. So, I have to keep an older computer around if I want to use this camera (at least until I save up enough to buy a new Digital Rebel ).

So, the phase out was to give developers time to get their applications ported over to OS X.

 

[Snowy_River]

to make things a bit clearer here, it is built into the hardware of the newer Macs including your new PowerBook to not be able to boot into OS 9. it was a decision Apple made but because of this hardware change that your clamshell will do OS 9 and your PB won't. hope this helps a bit or sorry if you knew this and i actually just insulted you.

I'd like to draw a bit of exception with some of your wording. Apple didn't choose to make new Macs unable to boot OS 9. Apple chose not to make new Macs able to boot OS 9. With every new machine, Apple has to make sure that the hardware performs properly under an older OS, and, usually, has to introduce a patch to the old OS to make it possible to run. So, the decision was not to invest the time, money and effort to try to make OS 9 work on new hardware. A reasonable decision, in my book...

 

[Sun Baked]

Exactly so. It's a hardware thing, not a software thing--the ROMs of newer machines won't allow booting into OS 9. It may be OpenFirmware, but I'm pretty sure it's in the ROM.

That and the ROM acted like a traffic map to all the hardware locations on the machine, one of the reasons the machines didn't change their chipsets to any great degree for so long while we waited for OS 9 to finally die.

The new machines still needed to look like the old machines to the old ROMs.

Since Apple didn't upgrade the OS 9 ROM when they finally introduced the new chipsets -- basically the old ROMs don't understand the new machines.

Before Apple locked the OS 9 ROM, they would need to rewrite the ROM, extensions, and control panels every time a new machine was released.

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Of course there were some problems that eventually had to be corrected, like the fans spooling out of control on the MDD Macs because the ROMs/OS 9 were not designed to control them.

 

[MisterMe]

That and the ROM acted like a traffic map to all the hardware locations on the machine, one of the reasons the machines didn't change their chipsets to any great degree for so long while we waited for OS 9 to finally die.

The new machines still needed to look like the old machines to the old ROMs.

Since Apple didn't upgrade the OS 9 ROM when they finally introduced the new chipsets -- basically the old ROMs don't understand the new machines.

Before Apple locked the OS 9 ROM, they would need to rewrite the ROM, extensions, and control panels every time a new machine was released.

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Of course there were some problems that eventually had to be corrected, like the fans spooling out of control on the MDD Macs because the ROMs/OS 9 were not designed to control them.

You clearly need to read up on the Toolbox ROM as well as Open Firmware.

 

[Sun Baked]

You clearly need to read up on the Toolbox ROM as well as Open Firmware.

So you're saying you don't need to update the "Mac OS ROM" file, extensions, and control panels in OS 9 System Folder to get OS 9 to use USB2.0, SATA, on the PowerMac G5 as primary I/O during the boot process -- because Open Firmware's EEPROM is the only thing you need to update, and since it's already updated OS 9 should have no problem using the new USB chip for keyboard access and SATA for drive access.

Your right, you obviously know more about the Mac than the rest of us.

I guess you should easily be able to patch OF to add OS 9 bootability for the PowerMac G5.

And here I thought the bootROM was searching for the "Mac OS ROM" file in the System Folder to bootstrap the boot process. Guess I have it all wrong.

(For some reason I always remember Apple having multiple firmaware, OS ROM updates, along with several versions of control panels and extensions before a computer with new i/o got all the bugs worked out of the addtional i/o)

 

[Makosuke]

I'd like to draw a bit of exception with some of your wording. Apple didn't choose to make new Macs unable to boot OS 9. Apple chose not to make new Macs able to boot OS 9. With every new machine, Apple has to make sure that the hardware performs properly under an older OS, and, usually, has to introduce a patch to the old OS to make it possible to run. So, the decision was not to invest the time, money and effort to try to make OS 9 work on new hardware. A reasonable decision, in my book...

Actually, the best wording would probably be "Apple chose not to make OS 9 able to boot new Macs." Apple adds new hardware to Macs as they go along, and any time the hardware changes (new graphics card, new USB controller, whatever), the OS needs to support it.

Although it might have been possible to allow some of the newer G4 Macs to boot an unmodified version of OS 9 with drastically reduced capabilities (the G5s definitely won't work without significant changes to OS9, and even the main Hard Drive controller on the last-generation G4 towers had no OS9 driver), Apple decided that it wasn't worth writing new OS9 drivers for the new stuff, and the computers would (at least in most cases) be too limited in functionality if they were allowed to even try.

I'd also like to point out that, unlike Microsoft, Apple has traditionally never updated older OSes to boot new machines. If you bought a Mac that shipped with System 7.5, it wouldn't boot in 7.1 or 6. If you bought a Mac that shipped with OS 9.1, it wouldn't boot with 8.6 or 7.6. If you buy a Mac that shipps with 10.2.7, it won't boot in 10.2.2 or 10.1, and so on. If anything, the Macs that could boot in both X and 9 were anomalies by this standard.

Food for thought.

 

[MisterMe]

So you're saying you don't need to update the "Mac OS ROM" file, extensions, and control panels in OS 9 System Folder to get OS 9 to use USB2.0, SATA, on the PowerMac G5 as primary I/O during the boot process -- because Open Firmware's EEPROM is the only thing you need to update, and since it's already updated OS 9 should have no problem using the new USB chip for keyboard access and SATA for drive access.

Your right, you obviously know more about the Mac than the rest of us.

I guess you should easily be able to patch OF to add OS 9 bootability for the PowerMac G5.

And here I thought the bootROM was searching for the "Mac OS ROM" file in the System Folder to bootstrap the boot process. Guess I have it all wrong.

(For some reason I always remember Apple having multiple firmaware, OS ROM updates, along with several versions of control panels and extensions before a computer with new i/o got all the bugs worked out of the addtional i/o)

What I said was that you need to read up on the Toolbox ROM as well as Open Firmware. It will serve you much better than pouting about what you think I said.

 

[Snowy_River]

Actually, the best wording would probably be "Apple chose not to make OS 9 able to boot new Macs." ...

Granted. But it's the same basic point. It would take work that would be a poor investment to get a newer computer to boot OS 9.

 

[Sun Baked]

What I said was that you need to read up on the Toolbox ROM as well as Open Firmware. It will serve you much better than pouting about what you think I said.

No, you could explain why Open Firmware and not the (Mac OS ROM, control panels and extensions) are key to OS 9 bootability.

Since to my understanding the "complete" description of the hardware lies in Mac OS ROM, control panels and extensions. And the bootROM is used to bootsrap into the Mac OS ROM file to complete the booting process.

Since the bootROM is what is stored on the logic board, and initializes just enough of the machine to load the rest of the boot process from the HD. Under OS X this is bootX, under OS 9 I thought it was located in the Mac OS ROM file.

While OF may contain all the DMA addresses for all the hardware on the machine, it's entirely useless without the trafficmap provided by the System Software.

While OF on the MDD Mac may have know there was a fan controller at a certain address, the OS didn't know what to do with it, or the modem on the UniNorth 2.x

The OS may know that there's a fan controller on the MDD, it doesn't quite know what information to route to the controller in order to control it.

Sometimes knowing an address is pointless when you don't know where the streets are located.

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From my understanding the toolbox inside the Mac OS ROM was rewritten to be time slice aware and named Carbon, it's this toolbox that let's applications run under both OS X and OS 9.