Is this the historical reason for persecution of homosexuality?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by PracticalMac, Nov 20, 2013.

  1. PracticalMac, Nov 20, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013

    PracticalMac macrumors 68030

    PracticalMac

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    #1
    Is the historical opposition to homosexuality come from the fact a homosexual couples cannot reproduce?

    In Biblical times the need to reproduce was paramount.

    If the homosexual couple was to try and reproduce (have child), it naturally involved the “service” of one of opposite sex, the very fact then hits another core Abrahamic (Judeo/Christian/Islamic) religious belief of “fidelity” to one’s spouse in marriage.

    So homosexuality was a double whammy in ancient times:
    • Cannot reproduce when it was vital.
    • To reproduce meant going outside the construct of marriage.

    Of course today we have (expensive with low success rates) artificial means of causing pregnancy and no need for rapid population growth, so like other parts of the Bible that are obsolete and ignored (like slavery) society will not be diminished by accepting homosexual marriage and thus the acceptance of such.

    It is a very fundamental social rational we might not even realize.

    Thought have merit or way off base?


    UPDATE:

    Came across supporting evidence from a biblical site:
     
  2. lannister80 macrumors 6502

    lannister80

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    #2
    Meh, I think that's a somewhat narrow view. Views on what is considered normal sexuality has been absolutely all over the map throughout history. It seems mainly in the Abraamic religions that it's more of a no-no.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_human_sexuality
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_homosexuality
     
  3. Shrink, Nov 20, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013

    Shrink macrumors G3

    Shrink

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    #3
    Yup...a long, long, long history of human stupidity.


    :rolleyes:
     
  4. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    There isn't anything obviously anti-gay in the bible.
     
  5. EvilQueen macrumors 6502

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  6. PracticalMac thread starter macrumors 68030

    PracticalMac

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    Hard to argue this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality):
    Chapters 18 and 20 of Leviticus, which form part of the Holiness code, contain the following verses:
    • 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. (Leviticus 18:22 KJV)[1]
    • 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13 KJV)

    That is the only solid rule, the others are vague and interpreted as such.
     
  7. Eraserhead macrumors G4

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    #7
    Christians eat bacon and wear mixed fabric clothing without issue. And they are both prevented in the same section. So I don't think that is relevant to be honest.
     
  8. joeshmo2010 macrumors 6502a

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    #8
    These versus don't do anything for the whole biblical anti gay arguments. They mean nothing. Many people say homosexuality is wrong because of what these two versus say. But homosexuality is about both males and females, not just males. Yet, these versus only refer to men lying with men as "wrong," they fail to ignore women lying with women, which is also homosexuality. Their arguments are false.
     
  9. shinji macrumors 65816

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    People look for scapegoats, and in this case, religious doctrine was used to provide a rationale. I don't think it really had much to do with the average person actually caring about reproduction as a means of ensuring the human race's survival.
     
  10. PracticalMac, Nov 20, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2013

    PracticalMac thread starter macrumors 68030

    PracticalMac

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    #10
    And we are all going to hell.
    /Sarcasm :rolleyes:

    Leviticus also describes incest, want to get rid of that too?

    Yes, absolutely right, the "laws" do not apply to women.
    But those two versus and a few other references make for a strong male anti-homosexual tone.

    History says otherwise.
    Women have traditionally been seen as nothing but baby factories, still are. Societies that reproduce the fastest, win. Sorry to say.
     
  11. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #11
    Leviticus is a bunch of crap. According to Leviticus, you shouldn't wear a coat or suit made of two different fabrics - no silk/wool blends for me. Or you shouldn't breed different types of cattle.

    There has been same-sex behavior as long as there have been human beings. Gay soldiers marched with Caesar and Napoleon. Out of any population there is always going to be a certain percentage that are just more strongly attracted to their own sex. And a certain percentage that can go either way. Societies that pretend otherwise are usually the ones with the worst sex crimes hidden in the shadows.
     
  12. Andeavor macrumors 6502

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  13. aerok macrumors 65816

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    It's pretty similar to Muslims being allowed to have multiple wives. It made sense during the crusade to make more babies and there was less men due to the war. Today? Not really relevant anymore.
     
  14. APlotdevice macrumors 68040

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    Well some do, some don't. Many zealots refuse to even acknowledge the fact that woman have sexual desires. As evidenced by their "a woman can just say no" argument against contraceptives and abortion. And then of course there are all the men who see gay men as "sick", but lesbians as "hot".
     
  15. chrono1081 macrumors 604

    chrono1081

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    #15
    Basically it boils down to people just want to hate. Religion is used as a scapegoat all the time but even when presented with the true meanings of the passages you see in the Bible (the Bible which has a gay love story that people never seem to talk about in church), people still get angry and hate gays even more.

    Jesus doesn't hate. He never tells anyone to hate. I'm not sure why churches think its ok to hate.
     
  16. Andeavor macrumors 6502

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    I'm still of the opinion that Jesus was secretly gay and used Mary Magdalene as a decoy to throw of his adversaries. Judas was going to kiss and tell (literally), which led to his betrayal of Jesus and ultimately his demise (Judas', that is).

    Oh yeah, I also believe the service to God (monasteries, convents, etc.) was created for gay men and lesbians to serve the community without having to sacrifice their reputation.

    If you knew what really goes on in an average monastery, you'd convert in no time. And don't get me started on the priests of the Vatican...
     
  17. G51989 macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #17
    I call it religion,

    Billions of people praying to a god and listening to this god. The biggest problem is. He doesn't exist.

    Tho if god did exist. I would want god to be a black, and a female. Because yes!
     
  18. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #18
    A stopped clock is right twice a day...

    Look if the "Christians" who hate gays also give up shellfish, mixed fabric clothing and pork then I would have more sympathy.

    But unless they are going to petition the government to ban bacon they would still be hypocritical to be against gay marriage.
     
  19. Tomorrow macrumors 604

    Tomorrow

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    It's true that the old Jewish Law in Leviticus prohibited the Jews from eating the flesh of animals deemed "unclean."

    The reason Christians don't typically follow this, or the old Jewish Laws in general, is because Jesus explained to people that many of those laws no longer applied. To your point about bacon, Jesus said this:

    Matthew 15:11:

    Eat all the bacon and shrimp you like, Jesus still loves you.
     
  20. lannister80 macrumors 6502

    lannister80

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    #20
  21. EvilQueen macrumors 6502

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    #21
    I don't think it makes their arguments false simply because the verse doesn't apply to every possibility. It doesn't say anything about men lying with sheep either but in society we have agreed that lying with sheep is wrong. As a society we are moving more and more toward viewing homosexuality as being no big deal.

    ----------

    Not all churches hate.
     
  22. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #22
    So, beyond prejudice, why do some Christians follow the anti gay rules then?

    ----------

    Very true.
     
  23. Tomorrow macrumors 604

    Tomorrow

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    Because Jesus never addressed it one way or another. This has led some Christians to believe that, since Jesus never "repealed" the old law regarding homosexuality, that he continued to see it as unclean; and some others to believe what He said in Mark chapter 12:

     
  24. aerok macrumors 65816

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    #24
    And lesbian!
     
  25. Mousse macrumors 68000

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    Well, there is ONE line in the Bible that's anti-gay. Leviticus 18:22: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

    I take those old Mosaic laws with a grain of salt. There are plenty I find odd, Deuteronomy is full of doosies like these: "Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together." And... "Thou shalt not wear a mingled stuff, wool and linen together." I break mixed fabric law plenty of times. Call the fashion police.:rolleyes:
     

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