is this the true reason the NRA does not want background checks?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by steve knight, May 21, 2013.

  1. steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #1
    This study makes me really wonder about the NRA and why they don't want background checks and gun seller regulations. There have not been many studies on where guns come from that are used in crimes. but this one really makes me think.



    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html
    Ask a cop on the beat how criminals get guns and you're likely to hear this hard boiled response: "They steal them." But this street wisdom is wrong, according to one frustrated Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) agent who is tired of battling this popular misconception. An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal.

    In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.

    The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.

    According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."

    The report goes on to state that "over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs" and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs since September 13, 1994, when a new law took effect requiring dealers to report gun thefts within 48 hours. This makes the theft of 6,000 guns reported in the CIR/Frontline show "Hot Guns" only 25% of all cases reported to ATF in the past two and one-half years.

    Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street. An additional way criminals gain access to guns is family and friends, either through sales, theft or as gifts.

    While many guns are taken off the street when people are arrested and any firearms in their possession are confiscated, a new study shows how easily arrestees believe they could illegally acquire another firearm. Supported by the National Institute of Justice and based on interviews with those recently arrested, the study acknowledges gun theft is common, with 13 percent of all arrestees interviewed admitting that they had stolen a gun. However a key finding is that "the illegal market is the most likely source" for these people to obtain a gun. "In fact, more than half the arrestees say it is easy to obtain guns illegally," the report states. Responding to a question of how they obtained their most recent handgun, the arrestees answered as follows: 56% said they paid cash; 15% said it was a gift; 10% said they borrowed it; 8% said they traded for it; while 5% only said that they stole it.

    ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes. They conclude that these licensed retailers are part of a block of rogue entrepreneurs tempted by the big profits of gun trafficking. Cracking down on these dealers continues to be a priority for the ATF. What's needed, according to Wachtel, is better monitoring of the activities of legally licensed gun dealers. This means examining FFL paperwork to see where their guns are coming from, and making sure that those guns are being sold legally. But he says, "Let's be honest. If someone wants a gun, it's obvious the person will not have difficulty buying a gun, either legally or through the extensive United States black market."
     
  2. lostngone, May 22, 2013
    Last edited: May 22, 2013

    lostngone macrumors demi-god

    lostngone

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    #2
    So explain exactly how mandidtory background checks would stop any of the examples listed in that article?!!

    Also your source for information is from the same government that told legal law abiding FFLs to repeatidly look the other way and sell firearms to the Mexican drug cartels that ended up killing an unknown number of US citizens. As well as targeting pro-guns groups via IRS...

    Sorry if I don't trust the source and I don't jump on NRA hate train.
     
  3. glocke12, May 22, 2013
    Last edited: May 22, 2013

    glocke12 macrumors 6502a

    glocke12

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    First off, straw purchases are already illegal.

    Secondly, my gut tells me that tidbit about "at home" FFL dealers is either highly exaggerated or a made up lie.

    Anyone who holds an FFL needs to jump through many hoops at the local, state, and federal level. Once they have the liscence, they are than subject to surprise inspections by the ATF (and they will inspect). If things are out of order they face revocation of their license, jail time, or both. I don't doubt that there may be SOME at home FFL dealers that break the law, but Im betting they are in the minority.

    FYI, I used to be an at home FFL dealer.
     
  4. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    One could say that throttling background checks serves the NRA's constituency doubly. First, it facilitates the free flow of weapons, easing the impact of regulation on dealers and manufacturers (why support an organization that does not help you make more money?). Then, it gets guns into the hands of thugs, gang-bangers and criminals, everyone becomes aware of the dangerous level of weaponry in circulation, hence more people will want to buy guns to protect themselves from the nasties.

    Follow the money.
     
  5. steve knight thread starter macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #5
    The NRA benefits from mass shootings it benefits from the threat of legislation it pretty much always benefits.
     
  6. lostngone macrumors demi-god

    lostngone

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    Please define "benefits from". If you mean they get more donations from pro-gun members to fight for our right to own guns then absolutely yes!

    While you are at it can you answer my first reply?

     
  7. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    A fool and his money...
     
  8. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #8
    Straw purchases are illegal as has already been mentioned.
     
  9. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    Yes, they are illegal when the sale happens through a federal licensed firearms dealer. As we all know, as many as 40% of gun sales happen outside of federal licensed dealers.
     
  10. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    Why aren't they being prosecuted then?
     
  11. MuddyPaws1 macrumors 6502

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    The ones that happen outside of a dealer are not straw purchases. Different critter with different laws.

    Good question. Lack of funding? Spending too much time, effort and money on trying to add more laws that they won't or can't enforce? There has been study after study showing that this and dealers selling unregistered guns and reporting them as stolen are the main places where the bad guys get the guns. Why not put the effort into fixing that?
     
  12. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    What laws govern individual sales of guns? If I own a gun and I decide to sell it to someone, what manner of prosecution might I be subject to if the gun is later used in a crime?
     
  13. lostngone macrumors demi-god

    lostngone

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    Here are some of the federal laws relating to personal sales. You will have to research your State and local laws as well.

    http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons

    As far as the second part of your question, it really depends on a lot of things.
     
  14. thehustleman macrumors 65816

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    Why can't the anti and pro gun sides see the other side?

    There's some truth on both sides
     
  15. maflynn Moderator

    maflynn

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    #15
    [MOD NOTE]
    The PBS Off topic chatter has been removed, please stay on topic.
     
  16. Michael Goff macrumors G3

    Michael Goff

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    The NRA gets money from gun manufacturers, that's who they represent these days. As such, a shooting will likely result in more gun sales (it always happens because people want to 'defend themselves' and ignore that people who have guns are actually not any safer than those who don't). That results in more money to them, because they did their real job.
     
  17. lostngone macrumors demi-god

    lostngone

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    For me it is more about the right to defend myself. I can tell you I am safer with a gun then without one. I have used a gun to defend myself on more then one occasion.

    I would most likely NOT be here to say this if I didn't have one.
     
  18. Michael Goff macrumors G3

    Michael Goff

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    In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.
    • A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.

    That isn't even bringing up the whole part about women and their abusers, or the fact that more women are shot with guns in their own home by people they know than by strangers.

    Nobody can speak for 100% of cases, but overall the "I have a gun, so I'm safe" mentality is a myth.
     
  19. lostngone macrumors demi-god

    lostngone

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    #19

    Can you post the source study?

    I can't speak for anyone but myself and I can tell you I am here today because I used a firearm to protect myself.
     
  20. Michael Goff macrumors G3

    Michael Goff

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    I'll link all of the studies, and pretty much all of the links that were supposed to be there...

    http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2008.143099
    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc....-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-11
    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc....-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-15
     
  21. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #21
    Sure you are.
     
  22. lostngone macrumors demi-god

    lostngone

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    #22
    Okay, if you say so...
     
  23. thehustleman macrumors 65816

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    Screw a study, I'm in the same boat as you and can show you plenty of examples of a legal gunman saving the day.

    Not even including personal things I can verify myself
     
  24. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    Emphatically rejecting studies in favour of anecdotes is a poor illustration that you have the critical thinking capacity to be trusted with a firearm.

    [​IMG]
     
  25. steve knight thread starter macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #25
    the NRA is a lobby group first and foremost now it seems. it has changed from the old days. the more gun sales the more they benifit.
    background checks will keep some people from buying guns. if the report I brought up is true then it may weed out some of the buyers.
     

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