Islamic Clerics, what are they trying to achieve?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by dogbone, Jun 22, 2007.

  1. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Location:
    totally cool
    #51
    Okay. All things being equal. What makes muslims fly planes into buildings and strap explosive to themselves and not christians. You can't sit there and tell me that in recent history christians commit more acts of violence and terror then muslims. As many times as I've been to church in my youth there isn't one time a minister, priest, or preacher has told me to commit an act of violence. But three weeks in Egypt, a more secular country IMO, I visited three mosques and in all three the message had to do with the upcoming war with the jews and violence against non-muslims. I really didn't know what to expect when I went to these places and I certainly didn't feel unwelcome in any of them. The point is that I didn't have to travel far to reveal these preachings of hatred.


    Untrue. I'm fully capable of dissing any religion. They are just systems of control. So why are some systems of control more benign then others? This is thread is about why Islamic clerics continue to preach destruction while publicly denouncing it. Threads like this have come and gone here and everytime the same players post the same stuff about how the "xtians" are just as bad. If thats the case, shouldn't it be more apparent?
     
  2. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Location:
    St. Louis, MO
    #52
    All religions have extremists, some are just more numerous and vocal than others.

    We have the crazies like Fred Phelps who wants to kill every gay person in this country (fortunately, they don't actually try). They have crazies who want to kill every American. They're just more vocal about it than ours. Plus, I'm sure you can put part of the blame on our government, who's trying to make all of them look crazy to help gain support for this war. What are Bush & Co going to benefit more from? Telling us how nucking futs they are, or showing a bunch of Muslim clerics discussing how they want to end the violence and want peace over there? Just like they portray us in a bad light in their media, we do the same.
     
  3. spork183 macrumors 6502a

    spork183

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2006
    #53
    Why does proscribing to a faith mean that one must delude oneself? The purpose of a religion should be to help one become a better person. It is not to blindly follow, it is a path of discovery and growth. Other faiths are not so much "irrational and evil" as they are different in their beliefs. (I don't view radical islamic rhetoric as a faith, anymore than I view radical christian rhetoric as a faith) I don't see God (or, insert the deity of your choice here...) saying, only those who believe one certain way will be saved.

    As for the bible, you have to look at context. At what point was each group of people when God interacted with them? For the old testament people, He met them where they were. The new testament finds a focus on love and brotherhood, not chuckin' around bloody foreskins.

    btw-if a circumcision is 1/2 price, does the doctor remove a twoskin?
    Special on circumcision, get one-half off...
     
  4. zap2 macrumors 604

    zap2

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2005
    Location:
    Washington D.C
    #54
    Depends on your definition of recent....personally I think Xtian extremist work their evil in other ways. Ways that work better IMO, why kill people, when you can try and take people rights away, and still gain control.

    This way, Xtian leader(The extremist ones) get the same thing Muslim leaders (The extremist ones) want, but faster. No losing support when they want to make a point.

    But thats not to say, they aren't killing people. The extremist Xtian leaders supported Bush, who supported Iraq war, which supports killing. Not the same way extremist muslims do it, but gets the job done.
     
  5. matthew24 macrumors 6502

    matthew24

    Joined:
    May 30, 2002
    Location:
    Netherlands
    #55
    Muhammed was a fake prophet thus the Quran is a fake 'gospel', thus Allah is a fake Yahweh.
     
  6. matthew24 macrumors 6502

    matthew24

    Joined:
    May 30, 2002
    Location:
    Netherlands
    #56
    It was written over a period of 1400 years, was inspired by God and preserved by God.
    (2 Tim 3:16, 2 Pet 1:19-21, Rev. 22:19)

    Is. 55:6    Seek the LORD while he may be found;
    call on him while he is near.
    Is. 55:7    Let the wicked forsake his way
    and the evil man his thoughts.
      Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him,
    and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
    Is. 55:8    “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,”
    declares the LORD.
    Is. 55:9    “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.
    Is. 55:10    As the rain and the snow
    come down from heaven,
    and do not return to it
    without watering the earth
    and making it bud and flourish,
    so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
    11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
    It will not return to me empty,
    but will accomplish what I desire
    and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
     
  7. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Location:
    The Mergui Archipelago
    #57
    Again it's telling that you're more interested in defending christianity by comparison with islam. I wonder where agnostics/atheists would fit on your linear curve of religious-motivate violence?

    Classic :D. Unfortunately it's all in the perspective. In recent history there's been a few acts of violence and terror rained upon the middle east under the name of christianity.

    Which version is the right one preserved by god? Does my King James I have here trump the text in all other versions?
     
  8. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #58
    Well they would say that, wouldn't they?
     
  9. Queso Suspended

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2006
    #59
    Jesus was a fake prophet, as was all those who went before him. The Bible and Torah are fake gospels and God doesn't exist at all.

    Do you understand where I'm coming from now? You can argue about who's the heretic all you like as far as I'm concerned, but considering you're all deluded comparing one against the other is a pointless task.

    BTW, obeygiant, I would argue the reason that Christians and Jews don't fly planes into buildings is because they are dominant in terms of global military power. Why use aeroplanes when you already have Cruise missiles? But as I see it this isn't really a battle of religious beliefs, but of cultures. The Western world wishes to remain dominant, the Muslim world wishes to become more powerful. As things stand the West has all the official methods to power and influence tied up, so the Islamists resort to covert action. This isn't a new phenomenon, it's just standard revolutionary stuff played out on a larger scale.
     
  10. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2006
    #60
    Stuck in the Old Testament are we? Christianity is rooted in the New Testament. I dont' remember reading any endorsement of incest, rape and murder there.
     
  11. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2006
    #61
    Amazing how many people are willing to fall for his line without a single miracle or corroborating witness too. The whole religion is based on the "because I said so" defense. That makes it as valid as Scientology and Moonism as far as I'm concerned.

    I have noticed that the nuttiness of muslims seems directly proportional to their distance from that metorite in the Kabah.
     
  12. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Location:
    The Mergui Archipelago
    #62
    Christianity might be rooted in the new testament but it's fertilised by the bucketload from the old testament. It's your loving deity that carried out/condoned those atrocities and was proud enough to ensure it was written down for perpituity.

    I take it you condone removing the OT from all christian bibles as irrelevant?
     
  13. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Location:
    totally cool
    #63
    If thats true, then you too seem all to eager to defend Islam at the expense of Christianity. As for agnostics or atheists, I don't have an opinion unless they try to blow up other religious folk.

    Well, how far back would you like to go? Both sides have killed in the name of their religion. But we're talking about current events. Not to say that history isn't important but the discussion should stay within the last 50-150 years. Otherwise we could go back to the beginning of time.

    The King James is the most reliable translation.
     
  14. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Location:
    The Mergui Archipelago
    #64
    No I'm eager to point out the hipocrisy of people trumpeting the glory of their peace and love religion on the basis that it inspires less violence and bloodshed*.

    * in recent years.

    Did god somehow indicate that the king james is the one he preserved?
     
  15. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Location:
    totally cool
    #65
    Well thanks then. Please continue to point out the hipocrisy (sic) of everyone else.

    No, God has nothing to do with it. The King James Version was translated in 1611 from the Greek Scriptures and is generally referred to as the standard among modern scholars.
     
  16. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Location:
    The Mergui Archipelago
    #66
    Thanks, I'll know now that the King James is the canon by which christians are happy to go by. Should make things easier.
     
  17. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2006
    #67
    No, because the OT documents the original convenant between Abraham and Yahweh and establishes the historical context that is Judeo-Christianity. The arrival of the Messiah wouldn't make much sense without that context would it?
     
  18. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Location:
    The Mergui Archipelago
    #68
    So the OT isn't integral to christianity but it's worth keeping around as it has a nebulous kind of importance? That way its content can be used at will to bolster christian belief, but any criticism of its content can be instantly dismissed as irrelevant to modern day christians.
     
  19. carbonmotion macrumors 6502a

    carbonmotion

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2004
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    #69
    nebulous is a pretty big word!
     
  20. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #70
    Anachronistic is even bigger.
     
  21. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2006
    #71
    I'd like to know how you come to that opinion. It certainly isn't based on all the miracles that he performed during his ministry on Earth and those performed afterwards by the apostles and saints in the hundreds of years following his death and resurrection.
     
  22. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Location:
    UK
    #72
    Personally I'd go for a more modern one than the King James translation as it would probably have been researched more accurately, otherwise what would be the point in retranslating the Bible at all?

    But back on topic, I was looking at the number of civilians killed in Iraq, and the low estimate according to iraqbodycount.org is 66315, now in comparison according to Wikipedia just under 3000 people died in 9/11.

    Now if we add on the figures from the Bali Bombing (202), the Madrid Bombing (191) and the London Bombing (52) we get 3450 civilians killed by Islamic terrorism.

    If you look at the figures in Iraq by taking the low estimate we have killed over 19x more Iraqis than the Islamic terrorists have killed in the 4 major terrorist bombings.

    Now step back and think about what the Muslim clerics must think of us.

    And before anyone claims that Iraq is a war and 9/11 was not well that isn't borne up by the facts:
    a) the Iraq war was illegal under international law.
    b) The Americans said that the 9/11 attacks were a declaration of war (see Wikipedia and the Nato charter)
     
  23. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2006
    #73
    War is not a one for one proposition. Our body count versus there's means nothing. The use of the word "civilian" as applied to Iraq deaths is a misnomer also - unless civilians routinely live in ammo dumps and next to artillary pieces.

    Hope all this has made an impression on the people's of that region. Despite what happened to the Iraqis, it seems like both Hamas and Iran are holding big "bomb me next" signs.
     
  24. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Location:
    UK
    #74
    Clearly you can't see this from the Arab POV, which was my point, I'm disappointed.

    Also we have killed an order of magnitude more people than they have. Would 9/11 have had the same impact if only 160 people were killed.
     
  25. Queso Suspended

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2006
    #75
    People in groups can often be swayed into believing things which are not true. Those miracles never happened, people just talked about it afterwards and the story was exaggerated by further telling. The same thing happens today. Look at those nutters speaking in tongues. Mass hysteria or a form of hypnosis, but proof of a higher power? I think not.
     

Share This Page