Islamic Rights vs Gay Rights

SmackBookPro

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Jan 11, 2018
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This is potentially a massive discussion, but one I think we need to have in society in the UK & US in general... What I see here in the UK is a group of people who are, for example, supportive of immigration and gay pride for example, and there's lots of good to be said for both!!! BUT, Islam is extremely intolerant of gay rights and extremely intolerant of womens rights. These are things that in the first world we hold dear and are leading the way with. Consider, at least in the UK, progress made for humane treatment of animals on farms used for producing meat too, the Halal approved method (hanging an animal and cutting its throat, making it bleed dry - no joke) is completely against the humane approaches and organic farming practices people care about and spent decades lobbying for.

As our societies become more diverse in culture, how are we going to navigate this? In the UK we have discussion about what will be taught in schools regarding same sex relationships, with some people fighting for it to be taught, and largely Islamic communities protesting against it.. In some countries of origin, people can be publicly stoned to death or have fingers cut off as a punishment for things they see as a crime such as being gay. Women are not allowed education, whereas in the UK and US we are pushing for support for women to do anything from government to leading companies.

I hope you see what I mean, what is going to happen when these groups must co-exist? I'm not pointing fingers at any group, but what I'm saying it, some principles both sides hold dear and will not compromise are going to clash. What are we, as a society, to do?
 
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RichardMZhlubb

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As others have said, in the US (and UK), you are allowed to believe as you wish, but you should not be allowed to use those religious beliefs to dictate the actions of others.

In the US, I think that citing Islam as the issue is missing the far bigger problem. Fundamentalist Christians hold very comparable beliefs and are far more numerous and more focused on imposing those beliefs on others.
 

statik13

macrumors regular
Jun 6, 2008
215
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I've always believed that my rights stop at the point that the next individual's rights begin. We should all be free to follow any religion, hold any belief, or have any lifestyle as long as those beliefs, religions and lifestyles don't hurt others.

It doesn't matter if you are straight, gay, religious, atheist, cis, trans, male or female. It comes down to "just don't be a jerk to each other"; and that is what we should teach in our schools.
 

SmackBookPro

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Co-existing between these groups is difficult to impossible.

For one, we're seeing people who would admit to holding views, e.g. that women shouldn't be educated, fired from their positions. People condemning homosexuality and encouraging their followers to actively murder people who are this way orientated according to scripture etc being told that it's okay.

Picture somebody thinking similar things about Jewish people, holding on to WW2 era horrific regimes. Should they be entitled to have, preach and teach those views equally as part of school curriculum?

This is where it gets messy, and what my original thread is aimed at.

Yes. Absolutely, co-existing is ideal. But in reality, some huge clashes with what the government and society will accept and decide to legislate and practice in the next few years will arise and choices will need to be made. It's a little like 'whose right' and 'whose wrong'. I really admire the optimism of co-existing, but how? Practically.
 

statik13

macrumors regular
Jun 6, 2008
215
1,062
Co-existing between these groups is difficult to impossible.

For one, we're seeing people who would admit to holding views, e.g. that women shouldn't be educated, fired from their positions. People condemning homosexuality and encouraging their followers to actively murder people who are this way orientated according to scripture etc being told that it's okay.

Picture somebody thinking similar things about Jewish people, holding on to WW2 era horrific regimes. Should they be entitled to have, preach and teach those views equally as part of school curriculum?

This is where it gets messy, and what my original thread is aimed at.

Yes. Absolutely, co-existing is ideal. But in reality, some huge clashes with what the government and society will accept and decide to legislate and practice in the next few years will arise and choices will need to be made. It's a little like 'whose right' and 'whose wrong'. I really admire the optimism of co-existing, but how? Practically.
One way is to start with the government and filter down from there.

I'd suggest looking at Canada's GBA+ program as an example of a good start:

"GBA+ is an analytical process used to assess how diverse groups of women, men and non-binary people may experience policies, programs and initiatives. The “plus” in GBA+ acknowledges that GBA goes beyond biological (sex) and socio-cultural (gender) differences. We all have multiple identity factors that intersect to make us who we are; GBA+ also considers many other identity factors, like race, ethnicity, religion, age, and mental or physical disability."
If the laws a country are created considering a policy like this, then it encourages all of a country's culture to follow suit.

Examples can be as simple as how we make walk signs; Here's an example from London that encourages acceptance of same sex relationships

 

JayMysterio

macrumors 6502a
Apr 24, 2010
668
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Rock Ridge, California
This is potentially a massive discussion, but one I think we need to have in society in the UK & US in general... What I see here in the UK is a group of people who are, for example, supportive of immigration and gay pride for example, and there's lots of good to be said for both!!! BUT, Islam is extremely intolerant of gay rights and extremely intolerant of womens rights. These are things that in the first world we hold dear and are leading the way with. Consider, at least in the UK, progress made for humane treatment of animals on farms used for producing meat too, the Halal approved method (hanging an animal and cutting its throat, making it bleed dry - no joke) is completely against the humane approaches and organic farming practices people care about and spent decades lobbying for.

As our societies become more diverse in culture, how are we going to navigate this? In the UK we have discussion about what will be taught in schools regarding same sex relationships, with some people fighting for it to be taught, and largely Islamic communities protesting against it.. In some countries of origin, people can be publicly stoned to death or have fingers cut off as a punishment for things they see as a crime such as being gay. Women are not allowed education, whereas in the UK and US we are pushing for support for women to do anything from government to leading companies.

I hope you see what I mean, what is going to happen when these groups must co-exist? I'm not pointing fingers at any group, but what I'm saying it, some principles both sides hold dear and will not compromise are going to clash. What are we, as a society, to do?
In the United States, the solution for this is something known as "the separation of Church & State".
[doublepost=1562073877][/doublepost]
Umm, no. That sounds like some liberal propaganda.
It can if you have no issue with the fundamentals of Christianity tied to government decisions.
 

benshive

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Feb 26, 2017
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United States
In the US, I think that citing Islam as the issue is missing the far bigger problem. Fundamentalist Christians hold very comparable beliefs and are far more numerous and more focused on imposing those beliefs on others.
Christians would hold comparable beliefs if they believed all of what was in their holy book, something that radical muslims do with theirs. Christians have largely dropped the terrible parts of the Bible by saying that they're all metaphorical or by just ignoring them entirely. Islam is a younger religion and will probably go down the same road. Think of how barbaric the Catholic Church used to be. But there definitely are plenty of Christians here trying to impose their beliefs on others. Funny part is they'll simultaneously say how much they love living in a free country and then try to legislate the tenets of their religion.
 

Baldilocks

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Jan 2, 2012
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Christians would hold comparable beliefs if they believed all of what was in their holy book, something that radical muslims do with theirs. Christians have largely dropped the terrible parts of the Bible by saying that they're all metaphorical or by just ignoring them entirely. Islam is a younger religion and will probably go down the same road. Think of how barbaric the Catholic Church used to be. But there definitely are plenty of Christians here trying to impose their beliefs on others. Funny part is they'll simultaneously say how much they love living in a free country and then try to legislate the tenets of their religion.
Yes, God forbid we would want people to murder, steal, cheat, etc....

The "terrible" parts of the Bible, as you say, were Old Testament (covenant) laws. The New Testament brought a lot of change.

No true Christian tries to force their beliefs on anyone, but they will stand up for what they believe in and by the looks of society today, we could use a little more belief.
 

bbednarz

macrumors 65816
Nov 16, 2017
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Chicago
I've always believed that my rights stop at the point that the next individual's rights begin. We should all be free to follow any religion, hold any belief, or have any lifestyle as long as those beliefs, religions and lifestyles don't hurt others.

It doesn't matter if you are straight, gay, religious, atheist, cis, trans, male or female. It comes down to "just don't be a jerk to each other"; and that is what we should teach in our schools.
This is way too logical!
 
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RichardMZhlubb

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Nov 26, 2010
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Umm, no. That sounds like some liberal propaganda.
Are you seriously going to pretend that Fundamentalist Christians (see, e.g., Mike Pence) are not anti-LGBTQ and have not sought to restrict the rights of gays and lesbians? If I were gay, I would sure as hell be far more worried about the political influence of Christians than Muslims.
 

benshive

macrumors 6502
Feb 26, 2017
282
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United States
Yes, God forbid we would want people to murder, steal, cheat, etc....

The "terrible" parts of the Bible, as you say, were Old Testament (covenant) laws. The New Testament brought a lot of change.

No true Christian tries to force their beliefs on anyone, but they will stand up for what they believe in and by the looks of society today, we could use a little more belief.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with your first sentence, but there are terrible parts of the New Testament as well. Take 1 Peter 2:18 for example:
"You who are slaves must submit to your masters with all respect. Do what they tell you—not only if they are kind and reasonable, but even if they are cruel."

Doesn't sound like a book I'll be going to for my morality. And to act like Christians in this country don't try to force their beliefs on anyone is far from true. They fought tooth and nail against giving homosexual couples the right to marry. They want to use the law to tell two consenting adults what they can and cannot do, even if it's none of their business.
 

Baldilocks

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Jan 2, 2012
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I'm not sure what you're getting at with your first sentence, but there are terrible parts of the New Testament as well. Take 1 Peter 2:18 for example:
"You who are slaves must submit to your masters with all respect. Do what they tell you—not only if they are kind and reasonable, but even if they are cruel."

Doesn't sound like a book I'll be going to for my morality. And to act like Christians in this country don't try to force their beliefs on anyone is far from true. They fought tooth and nail against giving homosexual couples the right to marry. They want to use the law to tell two consenting adults what they can and cannot do, even if it's none of their business.
That's your choice. I'll pray for you though.

As a Christian, I'll stand by my belief that homosexuality is a sin, doesn't mean I hate you.
[doublepost=1562078335][/doublepost]
Are you seriously going to pretend that Fundamentalist Christians (see, e.g., Mike Pence) are not anti-LGBTQ and have not sought to restrict the rights of gays and lesbians? If I were gay, I would sure as hell be far more worried about the political influence of Christians than Muslims.
Really? The only vocal minority who seem to influence new legislation are DEFINITELY not fundamentalist Christians. You'll have to look at non-white, female, LGBQTABCBVC, vegan, femenist liberals for that.
 

JayMysterio

macrumors 6502a
Apr 24, 2010
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Rock Ridge, California
That's your choice. I'll pray for you though.

As a Christian, I'll stand by my belief that homosexuality is a sin, doesn't mean I hate you.
[doublepost=1562078335][/doublepost]

Really? The only vocal minority who seem to influence new legislation are DEFINITELY not fundamentalist Christians. You'll have to look at non-white, female, LGBQTABCBVC, vegan, femenist liberals for that.
Who do you imagine is a major player in the push for overly restrictive abortion bills in various state governments?
 

TheFluffyDuck

macrumors 6502
Jul 26, 2012
496
1,144
It's this stamp collecting of minorities that I find most repulsive, and brings out the inherent bigotry of the modern left, trying to juggle where people fit on the progressive stack due to some theoretical systemic privilege. All I know is that the this ranking of groups of people (not individuals) is not static, but rather an elevator to a meat grinder. Nobody is safe from this modern Mccarthyism.

But if I had a guess which one will end up trumping the other, then my money is on Muslim rights that will trump LGBT rights. Never underestimate the ingrained self loathing of the modern left on every level of its thinking, they cant say a good word about the west, their countries history, about their gender, their race, there anything. This is because the biggest shortcut to pseudo-intellectualism in the 21st century is to virtue signal and martyr that it's "our" fault somehow. Which is ultimately why the majority western movement will cave its rights to the predominately non-western demographic.

Don't look for morality here you wont find it, it's about power, and the power that now comes through the expedient of virtue signalling your past sins against progressive values, and how 'woke' you now are.
 
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RichardMZhlubb

Contributor
Nov 26, 2010
209
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Washington, DC
Really? The only vocal minority who seem to influence new legislation are DEFINITELY not fundamentalist Christians. You'll have to look at non-white, female, LGBQTABCBVC, vegan, femenist liberals for that.
Two conservative Christian groups in Texas believe that businesses and employers have the legal right to discriminate against LGBTQ workers on religious grounds, and they’re trying to get the courts to back them up.

The US Pastors Council and Texas Values, two nonprofit evangelical groups, filed multiple lawsuits in state and federal court this week, claiming that Christian businesses and churches have a constitutional right to fire — or not hire — LGBTQ workers.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/10/11/17961620/texas-evangelical-lgbtq-discrimination-lawsuit
 

Plutonius

macrumors 604
Feb 22, 2003
7,855
6,018
New Hampshire, USA
This is potentially a massive discussion, but one I think we need to have in society in the UK & US in general... What I see here in the UK is a group of people who are, for example, supportive of immigration and gay pride for example, and there's lots of good to be said for both!!! BUT, Islam is extremely intolerant of gay rights and extremely intolerant of womens rights. These are things that in the first world we hold dear and are leading the way with. Consider, at least in the UK, progress made for humane treatment of animals on farms used for producing meat too, the Halal approved method (hanging an animal and cutting its throat, making it bleed dry - no joke) is completely against the humane approaches and organic farming practices people care about and spent decades lobbying for.

As our societies become more diverse in culture, how are we going to navigate this? In the UK we have discussion about what will be taught in schools regarding same sex relationships, with some people fighting for it to be taught, and largely Islamic communities protesting against it.. In some countries of origin, people can be publicly stoned to death or have fingers cut off as a punishment for things they see as a crime such as being gay. Women are not allowed education, whereas in the UK and US we are pushing for support for women to do anything from government to leading companies.

I hope you see what I mean, what is going to happen when these groups must co-exist? I'm not pointing fingers at any group, but what I'm saying it, some principles both sides hold dear and will not compromise are going to clash. What are we, as a society, to do?
People are willing to overlook a lot for political expediency.
 

ThisBougieLife

macrumors 68020
Jan 21, 2016
2,022
6,363
SF Bay Area, California
I agree with Baldilocks' first statement. If I, as a white liberal American, moved to a Muslim country, I would not be able to change their culture to accommodate me. Perhaps some accommodations would be allowed: I might be able to access some materials in English, I would not be forced to attend services at a mosque, etc. But otherwise there would be little done differently for me and I would have to adapt to their culture. Yet if we say the same about a Western culture, it's seen as chauvinist and evil. It's true that we are in a different situation: Western nations have colonized other nations, bringing immigrants along the way, and marketed their nations as bastions of freedom and opportunity where the downtrodden of other nations with vastly different cultures can come to eke out a better life. And we do tend to be quite accommodating. But it only goes so far. They can speak their language, practice their religion, celebrate their culture. But they can't violate our laws. We aren't going to allow honor killings or forbid women to drive, nor in a less extreme example, stop mentioning same-sex relationships in school. That is something they will have to get used to.
 
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hawkeye_a

macrumors 65816
Jun 27, 2016
1,261
3,238
Lets get one thing straight; this isnt a debate about religious texts. No religion or religious populations or people for that matter, are perfect.

Do you care about equal rights for women? Religious freedom? LGBTQ... rights? Against anti-semitism? ...

If so, you will find those values present to a far greater degree in places where the majority of people get their moral foundations from the Judeo-Christian tradition than in places where Islam has been the socio-political tradition.

So it is really amusing to see some trying to equate opposition to gay marriage, or *viewing* homosexuality as a sin to those who outlaw homosexuality and throw homosexuals off the roofs of buildings. They're not the same thing; And to pretend they are is beyond absurd.

It’s really easy to have parades supporting/promoting the acceptance of LGBTQI... in San Francisco, Paris, London, Tel Aviv, Sydney... how about Cairo, Ramallah, Dubai, Istanbul, Tehran, Jakarta?

Why the difference?

Maybe those concerned about LGBTQI rights should try campaigning for rights in those places where they're non-existent?

To the original question.... it is a matter of balancing rights. Personal and religious views/feelings should not be legislated. Government should not try to change religions, nor should they be outlawing/punishing homosexuality. Many orthodox communities(Christian and Jewish) are probably anti-homosexuality but have been able to co-exist peacefully(live and let live).

Douglas Murray has talked extensively about this issue and how it is affecting the UK. I would assume that it applies to any “western” country.

@ThisBougieLife so we know how it has played out in places where the majority of the population has a Judeo-Christian tradition, what happens if/when that changes, within the current systems we have?(hint.... Persia, Lebanon)

IMHO
 
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eatrains

macrumors 6502
Mar 11, 2006
320
2,886
Yes, God forbid we would want people to murder, steal, cheat, etc....

The "terrible" parts of the Bible, as you say, were Old Testament (covenant) laws. The New Testament brought a lot of change.

No true Christian tries to force their beliefs on anyone, but they will stand up for what they believe in and by the looks of society today, we could use a little more belief.
So close! Only one word away from "no true Scotsman."

The reality is that the religious right has been trying to force their beliefs down the rest of the country's throats for its entire history and we've had to drag them kicking and screaming into a more equitable world.
[doublepost=1562087805][/doublepost]
You'll have to look at non-white, female, LGBQTABCBVC, vegan, femenist liberals for that.
Non-white people? Involved in their government?!?! THE HORROR AAAAHHHHH HELP US JEBUS
 

NT1440

macrumors G5
May 18, 2008
12,141
14,010
What is this utter ********? The premise of this thread is a willful misunderstanding that the vast majority of people who identify with a religion are FUNDAMENTALISTS to that religion.

Go to a god damned mosque for once in your lives and open your eyes.